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  1. #31
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    Replying to Your Opinion Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by FlorencioNineWind View Post
    Because of all the various problems that MindArk has had, which comes with being the ruling body of a virtual universe, and all the various mistakes that MindArk has made, some of which could have been prevented, and because of a few various incidents where people got frustrated with MA's responses, a lot of people have lost faith in MA and the game and has left.
    Can we get a source for this?

    Quote Originally Posted by FlorencioNineWind View Post
    Most of these people were higher end depositors and most of the higher end depositors who remain have decided to cut back on their depositing because they are uncertain of what direction the game will be taking.
    Source please?

    Quote Originally Posted by FlorencioNineWind View Post
    Many people have left the game for these reasons and or cut back on their depositing.
    Did you forget to mention the world's economic problems, and that a substantial portion of the playerbase left EU because their computer hardware wasn't capable of running CryEngine?

    Quote Originally Posted by FlorencioNineWind View Post
    This game is of course an economic game, so when there is less money being spent on the top of the pyramid (high end depositors) then there is less money in the entire economy due to the trickle down effect.
    You're stating the obvious here.

    Quote Originally Posted by FlorencioNineWind View Post
    Demand has also largely shifted to those with less money because they are the main consumers. Thus everything is cheaper.
    Source?

    Quote Originally Posted by FlorencioNineWind View Post
    This of course has also caused loot returns to be smaller because of less high end depositors putting money into the game, which has only caused more problems.
    Loot returns for me average around 90+%, and haven't changed much over the long-term since I started this game in 2007. Many others agree about loot return consistency in the long-term. I disagree with you here.

    Quote Originally Posted by FlorencioNineWind View Post
    Lastly, many people bought some of the new Calypso Land Plot Deeds when they came out a few weeks ago. The spending of money on them and not in the game only made the economy dip further.
    You have it backwards -- when people put money into Entropia Universe and buy ANYTHING (including deeds), it's good for the overall economy. Don't you realize that the "spending of money on them [deeds]" IS spending money "in the game"?
    Last edited by SamNinja; 12-14-2011 at 13:31.

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  3. #32
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    lol, 3 more pages since i checked last time I think this thread is done, but seems like not. So how much i understand from all posts, we need to think and re-think every move we make in EU or else you can be rly screwed, but wait, that applies on real life too I have 1 thing to say, we all can evade to be srewed, how you ask? Easy, alot of ppl doesnt understand that he is doing things very very wrong, but keep doing it and hoping for the best, but in the end they are mad, deposited money is lost and in the end he leave game and yells MA is money suckers. I dont want to defend them, but there is plenty enought things that can be done with profit, but rule is think with head when you are doing something. When i started this game, i was same idiot, i deposited 10 $ and got 100 peds, i was like wow i have rly good money here, and gone into wilds to hunt, because i was thinking it is so easy, just shoot mobs and wait for your loot. In next day i was so confused and didnt know what to do, because i lost my peds, and loot was worth like dunno 30 ped tt, ofc i get something like 40ped back, but didnt need to wait long and those too were gone Then i realised i need to think in this game to acomplish something, and i need to choose correct thing to do, all cant be hunters, miners, bussinemans and so on, every player have its own job, he just need to seek for it, and when he will find, things will go up. Sorry for my bad english, but that is how i see things now, sorry if i am horribly wrong, i just feel like this

  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lood View Post
    lol, 3 more pages since i checked last time I think this thread is done, but seems like not. So how much i understand from all posts, we need to think and re-think every move we make in EU or else you can be rly screwed, but wait, that applies on real life too I have 1 thing to say, we all can evade to be srewed, how you ask? Easy, alot of ppl doesnt understand that he is doing things very very wrong, but keep doing it and hoping for the best, but in the end they are mad, deposited money is lost and in the end he leave game and yells MA is money suckers. I dont want to defend them, but there is plenty enought things that can be done with profit, but rule is think with head when you are doing something. When i started this game, i was same idiot, i deposited 10 $ and got 100 peds, i was like wow i have rly good money here, and gone into wilds to hunt, because i was thinking it is so easy, just shoot mobs and wait for your loot. In next day i was so confused and didnt know what to do, because i lost my peds, and loot was worth like dunno 30 ped tt, ofc i get something like 40ped back, but didnt need to wait long and those too were gone Then i realised i need to think in this game to acomplish something, and i need to choose correct thing to do, all cant be hunters, miners, bussinemans and so on, every player have its own job, he just need to seek for it, and when he will find, things will go up. Sorry for my bad english, but that is how i see things now, sorry if i am horribly wrong, i just feel like this
    You are very right The main reason why I don't have any peds ingame, other than the fact that I refuse to depo, is that I can't wrap my head around all the work and time that goes into investing your peds as carefully as possible. Even today you can still make a profit, I personally have a friend who restarted the game recently and began with 30peds, in 1 month he had 1.2kped from trading. It's his job, his niche and he is very good at it. My niche is Historian/sweater and that's what I'll be till the end of the virtual world

  5. #34
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by FlorencioNineWind
    Because of all the various problems that MindArk has had, which comes with being the ruling body of a virtual universe, and all the various mistakes that MindArk has made, some of which could have been prevented, and because of a few various incidents where people got frustrated with MA's responses, a lot of people have lost faith in MA and the game and has left.

    Can we get a source for this?

    It's hard to get concrete sources for personal experience and observation, especially when I didn't know about the chat logging option until just recently. However, it can be easily explained:

    MindArk is in many ways the government of EU. Obviously because they are the ones who first created the game and they decide what happens next. The MA board of directors are like the president and the congress of the game. Okay, so that is easy to understand, well, if we know anything about governments then we know that it isn't easy to be one and they can make mistakes and have problems dealing with the happiness of the people they govern (aka the players).

    A few mistakes that MA made which helped develop the economy as we know it today are; L items, LME and SME, and vehicles. Now, I do believe that all those items were necesary and therefore there was no way of not making them, but they are still problems that were preventable. Certainly it would have been hard to imagine the impact of these items, but again with some extra thought it is possible that they may have been able to lessen the impact in some way.

    As for players being frustrated with the respones of MA. Again it's hard to get sources for personal experience and observation that happened before I knew about chat logging. However, I have personally heard the frustration of many hundreds of people this last year before they left, and if you want some examples of frustration you can just look up some posts on the forums. There is a furstration post about hangar owners not being satisfied with MA's gifts to them which can be used as one example. However, I personally believe that the hangar owners are just being whiny; they got all that they needed but they still want more. Now, while it is true that roughly 60% of all frustration that the players feel is simply the players being whiny, still it would be nice if that feeling of frustration would go away because it is affecting the retention of new players since they feel the frustration of those who are already in the game and then feel like the game isn't worth it.


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by FlorencioNineWind
    Most of these people were higher end depositors and most of the higher end depositors who remain have decided to cut back on their depositing because they are uncertain of what direction the game will be taking.

    Source please?

    Again, hard to get concrete sources to personal experience and observation before knowing about chat logging. Many of the higher end depositors I talked to were gone early last year when I had just started the game. It's hard for me to remember all the names of people who left because they didn't feel like the game was worth playing anymore, but there are a few that I was closer to which I have been able to remember that may help: Ryan, Kim caring calypso (ryan's wife if I remember right), Glow Rim Ko, Zane Bear Hyak. These people used to do alot in the game and they even started a new society last year that was the first society that I joined, but then after a few weeks they suddenly disappeared for no reason. Finally they came back on for a few quick logins and I got the jist of the reasons: Real life to busy, loss in excitement of the game, feeling of tired sadness as they see the sweaters having trouble, not feeling like it's worth it to spend money on the game anymore, uncertain of the game's real future. This was the feeling that I got from many of the other people that I have talked to who also left and the feeling that I got from others who I talked to who had higher end depo friends who gave their reasons for leaving. Now, of course it would be impossible for me to try and track all these people down, especially the ones I can't remember the names of, to get them to also speak. It may be possible that my experiences are issolated and I certainly do hope so, but I have been in contact with many people throughout my time in EU and if a few thousand people arn't a big enough test group to give a general idea of the feeling of the players of EU, then I need to find more people to talk to.

    As for people who cut back on spending, of course they are still around even if not very often. There are a few people in my society that say they have cut back on their spending because they arn't sure if it's worth spending as much on the game as they used to. Rune told us a while ago that he would cut back on his spending and I knows he spends alot. And of course there are the random people in the sweat groups that talk about cutting back of which again I didn't know about chat logging.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by FlorencioNineWind
    Many people have left the game for these reasons and or cut back on their depositing.

    Did you forget to mention the world's economic problems, and that a substantial portion of the playerbase left EU because their computer hardware wasn't capable of running CryEngine?

    I did forget to mention the world's economic problems, yes that is also a big reason for many people who have left. However, the world economy and the ingame one are closely linked and if the real world economy is bad then so will the game one be. A bad economy both ingame and out of game only makes people feel worse and makes even more leave, but I was mainly referring to the people I talked to who gave other reasons of quiting along with or absent of the economy being a reason. Also, I am referring to the people who quit for reasons other than hardware, the people who quit after those people quit.


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by FlorencioNineWind
    This game is of course an economic game, so when there is less money being spent on the top of the pyramid (high end depositors) then there is less money in the entire economy due to the trickle down effect.

    You're stating the obvious here.

    I know but it goes along with my economic explaination of the game and how things have changed over time.


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by FlorencioNineWind
    Demand has also largely shifted to those with less money because they are the main consumers. Thus everything is cheaper.

    Source?

    Go look at the auctions and try following the market on some of the items for awhile :P also you will largely need to go back and follow the market as I did for this entire last year as that is when most of the shift occured. It doesn't take much to see that many items have gotten very cheap relative to earlier years or even relative to early last year. I suppose that the easiest market to track would be the vehicle market. Early last year the valks and jeeps which were the only vehicles had a pretty constant price, but as more vehicles came in and as the year changed vehicles got cheaper and cheaper. Now this is supply and demand so more supply=more demand, but in a free market economy the price is also based upon what the consumer can pay. As time went along we saw the vehicle prices decrease because all the high end depositors got all they needed and didn't spend anymore money on the vehicles, so the market shifted to those who wanted them (low end depositors and sweaters) thus their price became cheap and now their prices may be even cheaper because the lower end depositor market is becoming saturated with more supply than demand due to them also having all they need. And again, the lower end depositor and sweater player base is obviously much higher in population than the high end depositors so of course they are the main consumers. With less high end depositors in the game and with them not needing to buy many items or cutting back on their own spending things get cheaper cause people whill only spend what they have. Thusly as there is less money to be spent the items follow along and get cheaper. The only items that are immune to this market change are unique/rare items and very high end uber items that only high end depositors would use anyways. I feel that this is pretty simple economics. From an observer point of view, many auction items were more expensive a year ago when I started playing than they are now and I heard about more people spending money more often than I hear about now. These days almost all I hear is people talking about cutting back on spending instead of people bragging that they spend alot.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by FlorencioNineWind
    This of course has also caused loot returns to be smaller because of less high end depositors putting money into the game, which has only caused more problems.

    Loot returns for me average around 90+%, and haven't changed much over the long-term since I started this game in 2007. Many others agree about loot return consistency in the long-term. I disagree with you here.

    Hmm, that may be one thing that depends upon the ava. It is very true that the more money MA gets the more they can afford to give back, but there is still a big luck factor. However, in this last year and especially in this last month I have heard about far more people getting nearly nothing in loot return as opposed to people getting more in loot return. The more people spend the closer to 90% they seem to get. So perhaps with the luck factor it may be that 10 people get 90% and 100 people get 30% constantly. This ratio would cause the misconception. Also, it was after this quoted post that a few of my friends finally started seeing 90% return after 3-4 months of 50% or less. Maybe just because it is the christmas season. I personally get 40% or less return 90% of the time and get higher than that only 10% of the time. I have broken even or made profit only 5 times in my entire year of playing and have only gotten 1 global. These results seem irritating and also affect the retention of new players. I'm personally just going with the flow and waiting to see how the future of the game plays out. But I have still heard far more stories of extreme loss this last year than I have of decent returns.
    Oh, one resource for this loot thing may be the new beacon missions. out of all the posts I have seen it appears that there is a constant theme luck based loot return. Both when talking about the past and when talking about the present loot returns on beacons many people said that they constantly broke even or made profit and many others said that they constantly got nothing in return. Perhaps the loot misconceptions would be fixed if MA simply reworked their system so that some people wouldn't go years without more than a 30% return and other people wouldn't go years with 90% or more. In this way there is a division of the opinions of the people as the 90% people feel everything is fine, but they don't understand that there are many who never get more than 50% for years on end. If MA would fix this to make things more fair, perhaps the division would disappear. Also, there appear to be more stories of extreme loss on the beacons, especially for the new ones, than there are of good returns so again I say the old rule that the 1 does not speak for the many. Perhaps in the long term those getting 50% or less for years on end will eventually see 90% or more, but years is a long time to wait and before their time is up they have either left or become so discouraged that when things do go well they can't see it.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by FlorencioNineWind
    Lastly, many people bought some of the new Calypso Land Plot Deeds when they came out a few weeks ago. The spending of money on them and not in the game only made the economy dip further.

    You have it backwards -- when people put money into Entropia Universe and buy ANYTHING (including deeds), it's good for the overall economy. Don't you realize that the "spending of money on them [deeds]" IS spending money "in the game"?

    Ah, yes, I worded that wrong. Spending of money on the deeds and not on items from other players caused a dip in the item economy, not in the loot economy. Giving money directly to MA in forms other than decay and ammo usage (aka buying deeds or getting a gold card kit) can in a way be seen as not spending money in the game because you are not buying items from other players and using them which is what makes up most of what the ingame economy is.

  6. #35
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    All economies go through periods of dips and peaks. From my own observations and the observations of older players that I have talked to over the last year it simply appears that the EU economy has been in a gradually increasing dip for the last 2 years or so which got worst this last year. It's simply observations. I certainly do hope that things pick up soon and who knows maybe we are in the deepest part of the dip already and the economy will begin to peak again. We can only wait and see. A few things that we can do to try and help the economy would be for those who whine for no reason to stop whining and for those who whine period to soften up on their complaining. The more negativity players and people outside the game hear the more they will be turned off from the game. the more positivity they hear the more they will feel that it is worth it to play. Both feelings can be a domino affect, we simply have a negative domino affect in motion at the present. Those with the power to help shape this game need only to face the facts of the situation and then work towards a solution that will bring the game back to a peak.

  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennson View Post
    It is fact the earth is flat. And it gets more fact because i repeat it. And when i repeat it even more it gets fact more.

    And especially everything Force says is fact because every 2d sentence he closes with Fact!.

    So you repeat it's common loging/sense and don't even consider where you state something as proven where it's easy to find examples which don't fit your "facts".
    Well you asked for it you will get it... i will compile your list after work
    Sam Ninja beat you to a list but if there is anything he missed please fill in the gaps

  8. #37
    Guardian Jennson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlorencioNineWind View Post
    Sam Ninja beat you to a list but if there is anything he missed please fill in the gaps
    Well Sam covered a lot of things and atm i'm too lazy to lookup more in your text, more interesting is your response. Let me take out some quotes.

    It's hard to get concrete sources for personal experience and observation, especially when I didn't know about the chat logging option until just recently.
    few mistakes that MA made which helped develop the economy as we know it today are; L items, LME and SME,
    Again it's hard to get sources for personal experience and observation
    Again, hard to get concrete sources to personal experience and observation
    This was the feeling that I got from many of the other people that I have talked to who also left and the feeling that I got from others who I talked to who
    Many of the higher end depositors I talked to were gone early last year when I had just started the game.
    And of course there are the random people in the sweat groups that talk about cutting back of which again I didn't know about chat logging.
    Hmm, that may be one thing that depends upon the ava.

    I have heard about far more people getting nearly nothing in loot return as opposed to people getting more in loot return.
    have broken even or made profit only 5 times in my entire year of playing and have only gotten 1 global. These results seem irritating and also affect the retention of new players.
    So these quotes give me a clear picture. You hear things, you see things you hear many people talking, but these are not facts. You aren't wrong in all points, but many conclusions are based on gut feeling and not facts.

    I also tend to back up my claims with numbers i collected or other people have collected or take Mindarks annual reports or numbers player generate. And then again i never state my personal observations are facts.

    And especially be careful on jumping on conclusions about the loot-system when you hardly cycled peds yet. Those are not facts about the game, those are observations of your personal small point of view.And I doubt you have cycled enough peds to experience a full loot cycle. I don't say this is how it ought to be, but neither do i claim my observations are facts.

    Again, I don't say in every point you are wrong - but you are the person who claims them as fact. I say they aren't.

  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennson View Post
    So these quotes give me a clear picture. You hear things, you see things you hear many people talking, but these are not facts. You aren't wrong in all points, but many conclusions are based on gut feeling and not facts.
    K, so maybe they are observation facts; not facts based upon hard evidence and numbers, but facts based upon the word of mouth from other players giving their experiences.
    Observation facts can still be a very good way to explain the course of the game as they embody the feelings of the people who play it and in an economic game the way that the game flows largely depends upon how the people feel; much like how the real world economy flows.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jennson View Post
    I also tend to back up my claims with numbers i collected or other people have collected or take Mindarks annual reports or numbers player generate. And then again i never state my personal observations are facts.
    My numbers would be the thousands of people I have talked to over the course of the year. I....Just don't have them all laid out on a spread sheet.
    So you would have to take my word for it about how many people I've talked to. It's good to not state personal observations as facts; my observations are observations tooken from many multiples of people along with my own.
    So, again, perhaps they can be stated as observation facts which still serve as a good way to get an idea of the game's flow.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jennson View Post
    And especially be careful on jumping on conclusions about the loot-system when you hardly cycled peds yet. Those are not facts about the game, those are observations of your personal small point of view.And I doubt you have cycled enough peds to experience a full loot cycle. I don't say this is how it ought to be, but neither do i claim my observations are facts.
    I am not basing my observed facts on my personal small point of view. I knows for a fact that I have most likely not cycled nearly enough peds to really know the loot system myself, but I have many many friends who spend alot on this game. Certainly Rune and Danimal has spent plenty enough peds on this game to get a good idea of how the loot system works. Mayhaps I should ask them to give me a spread sheet or if they don't have one then for them to make me one of their spending/return so that I can clearly see for sure how the returns are.
    Just, from the way they always seem to talk it feels like they almost never get anything compared to what they spend.
    They both shoot out ped like its nothing to them

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennson View Post
    Again, I don't say in every point you are wrong - but you are the person who claims them as fact. I say they aren't.
    And you did a wonderful job. You were able to discuss logically and give points to back up your views. Ed Ward had lost the discussion before he started it, but I would say that you have won.

    Now the only thing to do is get out there and try to turn EU around for the better so that the feelings of the players may turn positive and generate more income for MA. GO TEAM!

  10. #39
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    To Lood

    The economy is suffering due to merchants in game, they should be forbidden, also since MA hasn't yet introduced a MV = Merchant value on items sold and a loft on them, everyone suffers due to this.

    Sincerely: The NN.

  11. #40
    Provider New York Rose's Avatar
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    If you knew the answer( or think you did) why pose the question? Walls of text..see you in 5 more years!

 

 
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