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  1. #21
    Alpha wizzszz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serica View Post
    Found another recent thread on PCF (Oct12), with some relevance: http://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/fo...-training-area

    (See Danimal's posts)

    Perhaps until sometime fairly recently, there was a difference between how defence skills were limited with space mobs and planet-based mobs, which has since been applied universe-wide ? (That's only a guess ofc)
    That is exactly what i said, and how it worked since they nerfed the skillgains.

    If it is possible to reset the mob skillgains somehow, this is clearly a BUG and has no relevance in this discussion, as not everyone knows how to trigger that bug or doesn't want to get banned over exploiting a bug to replenish the skillgains some other player has drained.

    I mean, to exploit a bug is hardly what you recommend here now, is it?

    And i think after Neil has already reported back and confirmed that year old theory, there is no use in beating that dead horse any further.
    Not a single fuck shall be given today

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Stockton View Post
    I suppose you need to find something that hits very fast. Carabok are level 10 and hit every 3 seconds or so. It could be that there is a time limit for receiving skill messages (say, the first 5 minutes), and if you don't get hit enough in that time to gain skill, you won't receive any skill ups at all. With Carabok, my avatar (lvl 21 evader) gets 1-4 skillups in 5 minutes (with 4 mobs attacking).
    I did think the ripper would do it, but if I can find a tant spawn today, I'll give them a try. It's not that the mobs aren't hitting me at all, it's just that I'm not getting any regular defensive skill messages to speak of - 3 messages over 2hrs of gameplay using new mobs every 10min isn't enough to do any sort of testing

    Quote Originally Posted by wizzszz View Post
    That is exactly what i said, and how it worked since they nerfed the skillgains.

    If it is possible to reset the mob skillgains somehow, this is clearly a BUG and has no relevance in this discussion, as not everyone knows how to trigger that bug or doesn't want to get banned over exploiting a bug to replenish the skillgains some other player has drained.

    I mean, to exploit a bug is hardly what you recommend here now, is it?

    And i think after Neil has already reported back and confirmed that year old theory, there is no use in beating that dead horse any further.
    All the threads seen on PCF so far have agreed that from the time of the 2007 nerf to at least a couple of months ago, the players observations of defensive skillgains worked just as I originally said. Fishface told me in PM that he used to skill defense by slowly shooting an Atrox with an Opalo for hours and hours, and the defense skills would never deplete.
    Alainax was the first to confirm (in Oct this year), that defensive skilling worked differently in space, and Fishface has confirmed that in PM too.
    As the first space mobs were only introduced in June2011, it's possible that it was introduced then .. or possibly a later unannounced nerf in response to the high-volume of skilling by space repair crews, which has since been applied universe-wide.

  4. #23
    Dominant
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serica View Post
    As the first space mobs were only introduced in June2011, it's possible that it was introduced then .. or possibly a later unannounced nerf in response to the high-volume of skilling by space repair crews, which has since been applied universe-wide.
    As far as I know, space mobs have always behaved this way, so it makes sense if the change was introduced in June 2011 when they implemented the captain profession. My original tests were done probably a year ago. When you're skilling evade, you're spending healing costs, but when you skill pilot in a MS, you can do it completely free (since you're not the one doing the repairs) if you never have to shoot the space mobs.

  5. #24
    Alpha wizzszz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serica View Post
    All the threads seen on PCF so far have agreed that from the time of the 2007 nerf to at least a couple of months ago, the players observations of defensive skillgains worked just as I originally said.
    Pardon?

    What you originally said was that the mobs never runs out of skillgains, no matter what - it never worked this way since 2007.

    You just can't admit when you are disproven, simple as that.


    Dunno if they nerfed the stuff recently, but imo it is a bug.
    But even if it is a 'feature' this is a trick that is not available to everyone,
    and the next person sweating that mob will not get any skillgains from it.

    If you are indeed able to "reset" it by shooting (without using a bug exploit) is entirely irrelevant anyway, the first bunch of skillgains comes for free (read: no need to spend ammo to "reset" it), anything after requires payment.


    Hence depleting the skillgains a mob has is indeed damage done to another player. Twist it how you like, but your point has clearly been disproven.
    Not a single fuck shall be given today

  6. #25
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    No, go back and read again. I said that if the initial skillgains were depleted by one player, they were reset by any further player interaction, even 'free' interaction like sweating. I've provided several quotes to show that this was the understood norm of how these worked (ie. not just my personal belief).

    Alainax was the first to report in Oct 2012 on PCF that space mobs at least behaved differently, in that after the initial skillgains were depleted, no further interaction by the same or any other player would reset them.

    There are NO reports on PCF that I can find that suggest this extended to planet-based mobs. Neil is the first to state that, and as he's now provided some confirmation, I'm happy to work with him to obtain a wider range of datapoints for verification - just as I'm always happy to work with any player who is willing to make a positive contribution to the community.

    It wouldn't be the first time that there was an unannounced nerf to some aspect of the game that goes virtually unnoticed in the wider community until the matter is raised on a forum, and is then verified by testing.

  7. #26
    Alpha wizzszz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serica View Post
    No, go back and read again. I said that if the initial skillgains were depleted by one player, they were reset by any further player interaction, even 'free' interaction like sweating. I've provided several quotes to show that this was the understood norm of how these worked (ie. not just my personal belief).
    Reset by sweating?
    Again totally unfounded claims, Neils data have show that "stale mobs" don't give skillgains anymore, and until you have some kind of proof to show that sweating (or any other free activity) resets them and that this is WANTED behaviour (read: no bug) you should not use this in an argument.

    And as i said, this has NEVER been the "understood norm", that is "just in your head, and maybe that of a few of your mates."

    (That line alone is a pretty disgusting statement from a forum mod anyway)

    Quote Originally Posted by Serica View Post
    Alainax was the first to report in Oct 2012 on PCF that space mobs at least behaved differently, in that after the initial skillgains were depleted, no further interaction by the same or any other player would reset them.
    Maybe because mobs were never meant to be "reset" the way you suggested?
    I still think this is a bug, and you subsequently propose bug exploits as a way to compensate for another players foul play. That's a big NO-NO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serica View Post
    There are NO reports on PCF that I can find that suggest this extended to planet-based mobs. Neil is the first to state that, and as he's now provided some confirmation, I'm happy to work with him to obtain a wider range of datapoints for verification - just as I'm always happy to work with any player who is willing to make a positive contribution to the community.
    Neil has just confirmed what is known to the community since 2007.
    Countless players have reported this, countless skill maniacs have based i.e. their dodge skilling on that, so you must be the only person who was not aware of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serica View Post
    It wouldn't be the first time that there was an unannounced nerf to some aspect of the game that goes virtually unnoticed in the wider community until the matter is raised on a forum, and is then verified by testing.
    What nerf? It's been like that since 2007, if there is a bug to replenish skillgains, it will be removed. The point that a damage to another player is done by draining all skillgains is still very valid.

    It was possible to reset sweat count in mobs by leaving their radar range.
    This is pretty exactly the same, and it has been fixed (read: it was a BUG)!



    However, as a mod you have to stay more neutral than other members, and your reply to the opening post is everything else but neutral.
    Having read some of your latest posts on PCF, too, i must say that being a mod didn't exactly bring out your positive side.
    Not a single fuck shall be given today

  8. #27
    Provider JohnCapital's Avatar
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    --mod's note--
    Off-topic section moved to its own thread.
    --/mod's note--

    About mods and ours opinions. We're human. We have them. We state them. What we do not do is mix our opinions and moderating.

    As for this topic:

    I recall two situations:
    Knuckles got into some trouble dodge skilling drones back in old Jason Center. He learned that mobs stopped giving defense skills within 1 min. (can't recall correct time rate mentioned, but you get the idea) so he would take his mob trains an dump them on other hunters so he could grab "fresh" drones to skill with.

    I also recall the sweating trick where if you can drop a mob off your radar, you can return to it de-agroed and full of fresh sweat. The trick was that the mob could not be on any one else's radar either.

    In short, I believe that defense skill gains are "replenished" if the mob is completely removed from all player radars. (Keeping in mind the original complaint in the original thread, this makes for a valid claim, though in truth both folks were still insensitive jerks in their own way.)

    And by believe, I mean yes, I've tested it, and it worked for me.

    Neil while doing your carabok tests, were there other players there at the time?

    BTW, Serica, at your level, standing in front of punies you'll have to wait about a week for more than two or three skill gains. You need to grab a fap and stand in front of some more significantly harder hitting mobs to do any real skill tests on.

    Folks always said tants/merps/rippers/etc, but truth is those are only good because of the mobbing that occurs. The overall skill gains are good, but divided by the number of mobs chewing you it's still very low per mob.
    Always willing to learn

  9. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnCapital View Post
    ...
    BTW, Serica, at your level, standing in front of punies you'll have to wait about a week for more than two or three skill gains. You need to grab a fap and stand in front of some more significantly harder hitting mobs to do any real skill tests on.

    Folks always said tants/merps/rippers/etc, but truth is those are only good because of the mobbing that occurs. The overall skill gains are good, but divided by the number of mobs chewing you it's still very low per mob.
    So it seems JC, so I'll just keep working my way up the HP ladder til I find one that works. I'd really prefer to do this without major armor decay bills. For just healing I don't mind the cost so much, as that's something I'm working on skilling up anyway.

    Btw, in talking to Fish last night, he said that in space it doesn't matter how long the mobs are left, or if no-one has them on their radar .. they remain de-skilled.

    That's in space tho, and as I've never skilled up there, I can't make any personal confirmation myself, but what Fish said is in agreement with Alainax's posts on PCF.

    Also, being different skillsets, it's worthwhile trying to confirm if 'players on radar' makes any difference to 'replenishment' of planet-based mobs.

    Thanks for doing the thread split

  10. #29
    Dominant
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnCapital View Post
    Neil while doing your carabok tests, were there other players there at the time?
    I didn't notice any other players during the tests, though I didn't keep my eyes glued to the radar. I picked the most remote academy to do this test so I could avoid players shooting my mobs. During the 20-60 seconds it took my avatar to log out and my wife's avatar to log in, I assume nobody was on radar during that time. Though, of course, I wasn't there to check

    BTW, Serica, at your level, standing in front of punies you'll have to wait about a week for more than two or three skill gains. You need to grab a fap and stand in front of some more significantly harder hitting mobs to do any real skill tests on. Folks always said tants/merps/rippers/etc, but truth is those are only good because of the mobbing that occurs. The overall skill gains are good, but divided by the number of mobs chewing you it's still very low per mob.
    With 4 carabok punies on me, my avatar gets 2 or so skillups in 5 minutes. I'm level ~21 evader, so basically the same as Serica. I forget what level the Calypso punies are, but Carabok are L10 and have a fast attack rate (once every 3 seconds). My guess is that attack rate and mob level are both important to skilling rate. Carabok can be skilled in droves (the radar is a nearly solid red patch) in the woods west of the quarry. They give insane weapon skills too.

  11. #30
    Dominant
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serica View Post
    Btw, in talking to Fish last night, he said that in space it doesn't matter how long the mobs are left, or if no-one has them on their radar .. they remain de-skilled.

    That's in space tho, and as I've never skilled up there, I can't make any personal confirmation myself, but what Fish said is in agreement with Alainax's posts on PCF.
    I can confirm that it's worked that way for a long time up there, at least for the past year. Actually, what's interesting is that when you hop out of the pilot seat, you're not only off the radar, you're not even in space anymore.

    The reason this came up first on the forums in regard to space mobs is because the phenomenon is seen all the time up there. Pilot #1 gathers lots of mobs, takes their skills and then has to log out. When Pilot #2 takes over he has to kill all the space mobs and collect new ones before he will see skill gains. It also means that if a ship has 100 mobs on it and the pilot "sucks" them dry then proceeds to blow up the ship, there will be 100 mobs out there without skills in them.

  12. 12-28-2012, 09:46
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