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  1. #11
    Alpha wizzszz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cly View Post
    empirical experience
    Cool story bro, but your single scenario doesn't prove anything.
    There are probably two dozen things that explain your observations more than sufficiently - but overheating is not on that list.


    Empirical and Entropy are my all time favourites when it comes to "Words people use without the slightest idea what they mean".

    There are many, many more, but those are, by far, the best!


    /Edit:
    It is dead easy to check the temperature of your graphics card.
    Why is it that so many people claim that overheating is causing XYZ - but not a single one of them has actually checked the temperature and can provide some kind of evidence...?
    Last edited by wizzszz; 08-12-2013 at 04:02.
    Not a single fuck shall be given today

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  3. #12
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    Question I don't understand...

    ... why you assume I'm an idiot.

    Do you need me to provide screenshots of HWInfo or Speedfan showing my core temps at 89C while the laptop is idle, spiking when I launch a game?

    Because that's what they were at the time.

    But even showing you those screenies would not "prove" anything - if you refuse to accept anecdotal evidence from industry professionals that hardware can do strange things under heat loads then I cannot help you.

    Just carry on, and ignore me - OP will either check his fans or not. I don't really care - I was offering some advice rather than pointless criticism. And that's all I'll say - I will not answer in this thread again.

  4. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by wizzszz View Post
    More IT myths - if your computer overheats, it will shut down (some do reboot) without warning.

    There simply is no such state as "almost overheated" that could cause "strange things to happen" - the heat sensors fire long before something like that can happen.
    Your whole premise is based on the assumption that the computer's heat sensors will shut the computer down before any abnormal symptoms appear.

    While that's great in theory - and maybe even in professionally maintained systems - in the real world heat sensors are not infallible.

    The problem being experienced may very well be something unrelated to heat or power, but just because something should not happen does not mean it cannot happen.
    "What the wise do in the beginning, fools do in the end."

  5. #14
    Alpha wizzszz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cly View Post
    ... why you assume I'm an idiot.
    I don't assume anything here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cly View Post
    Do you need me to provide screenshots of HWInfo or Speedfan showing my core temps at 89C while the laptop is idle, spiking when I launch a game?

    Because that's what they were at the time.
    I didn't ask you to prove something - because you can't prove something that doesn't happen anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cly View Post
    But even showing you those screenies would not "prove" anything - if you refuse to accept anecdotal evidence from industry professionals that hardware can do strange things under heat loads then I cannot help you.
    "Anecdotal evidence"?

    There is a reason why hardware monitors its temperature, and basically you are saying that this monitoring is either not happening at all or it is faulty.

    Which comes down to nothing else but "the Nvidia guys are stupeeed".

    Sorry, but that's far too dumb to be considered a serious input.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cly View Post
    Just carry on, and ignore me - OP will either check his fans or not. I don't really care - I was offering some advice rather than pointless criticism. And that's all I'll say - I will not answer in this thread again.

    What I did was offering an advice.
    You were just advocating a totally unfounded gamer myth.


    Quote Originally Posted by Colbey Kal View Post
    Your whole premise is based on the assumption that the computer's heat sensors will shut the computer down before any abnormal symptoms appear.
    That is not an assumption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colbey Kal View Post
    While that's great in theory - and maybe even in professionally maintained systems - in the real world heat sensors are not infallible.
    Oh, so that bouquet of strange symptoms does not only require overheating, it does, on top of that, require a malfunctioning heat sensor.

    You guys don't even shy away from putting an entirely unlikely hypothetical scenario in the balance?
    Wow, that's sad, really.

    Please read the wiki article on Occam's razor before you ever, EVER try to join a debate again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colbey Kal View Post
    The problem being experienced may very well be something unrelated to heat or power, but just because something should not happen does not mean it cannot happen.
    Winning the lottery is not impossible, too, someone does win it all the time - nonetheless you would not consider "go play lottery" a rational advice when you need money.




    And because i don't expect you to stop your bullshit arguing anytime soon, here a couple of little "get real"-questions:

    How does overheating in the scenario in question cause the keyboard to fail?

    Why are the symptoms gone when the application stops?
    Heat accumulations do not vanish within microseconds...

    What's the point in having a heat sensor at all if it does not even protect your valuable hardware from overheating?
    Last edited by wizzszz; 08-12-2013 at 21:38.
    Not a single fuck shall be given today

  6. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by wizzszz View Post
    Oh, so that bouquet of strange symptoms does not only require overheating, it does, on top of that, require a malfunctioning heat sensor.

    You guys don't even shy away from putting an entirely unlikely hypothetical scenario in the balance?
    Wow, that's sad, really.

    Please read the wiki article on Occam's razor before you ever, EVER try to join a debate again.



    Winning the lottery is not impossible, too, someone does win it all the time - nonetheless you would not consider "go play lottery" a rational advice when you need money.

    Saying the that both the the sensor not functioning at the same time as the over heating occurring is comparable to winning the lottery is just absurd.

    You may want to consider Occam's Razor yourself. Instead of thinking that these are two separate and independent events the simplest answer would be that the sensor failure is related (either through causation or correlation) to the overheating. Two examples:
    1. The heat sensor failed causing the fans to to not engage.
    2. The original poster has environmental factors (like he smokes* or using the computer outside / in a dusty place) which would lead to systematic problems.


    Quote Originally Posted by wizzszz View Post
    And because i don't expect you to stop your bullshit arguing anytime soon, here a couple of little "get real"-questions:

    How does overheating in the scenario in question cause the keyboard to fail?
    I do not know. As far as I know your advice to the original poster was dead on and would be the correct solution - or the poster may come to another, more likely conclusion, after considering details we don't know that would match up with one of the other ideas. I was simply replying to your statement that "overheating would not cause strange things to happen" posted in #9.

    Quote Originally Posted by wizzszz View Post
    Why are the symptoms gone when the application stops?
    Heat accumulations do not vanish within microseconds...
    If the error was caused by overheating, and seeing as the computer did not totally shut down, then we see that the issue had not yet reached a point of critical failure i.e. the system was effectively over worked.

    While you are correct in stating the excess heat would not dissipate "within microseconds" the load on the electronics could be reduced to manageable levels within that time frame.

    Quote Originally Posted by wizzszz View Post
    What's the point in having a heat sensor at all if it does not even protect your valuable hardware from overheating?
    It would reduce the probability of over heating - especially if the heat sensor is only likely to fail in certain situations and after the computer is out of warranty. (Again, think of an environment with a heavy smoker)

    ------------------
    *: I was a smoker and I have had a computer overheat to the point of total failure - cooking something on the motherboard. (Had to buy a new computer) So I know that heat sensors are fallible - and "strange things" did happen before critical failure. The smoke residue will create a coating on everything in the smoker's area over time, especially the internal components of computers due to the fan(s) constantly creating internal airflow combined with the proximity of the cigarette to the vents. Ash also coated the interior or my former laptop.
    "What the wise do in the beginning, fools do in the end."

  7. #16
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    Actually, overheating is not an all or nothing issue. For example it's possible for the graphics card to overheat and offer degraded performance without impacting other components or causing system shutdown This is documented on various vendor support websites along with methods for troubleshooting and rectifying the issue.

    However, the symptoms described in the initial post are not consistent with overheating alone. So if there is an issue it is bigger than that.

    And of course power supplies do suffer from degradation and damage, either from events such as power spikes or over time through component failure.

    However a single noted temporary switch from AC to battery power is hardly a definitive indicator.

    Suggest the OP start with running a hardware diagnostic (should be available from ASUS) to start with just to rule out hardware issues and then progress onto checking and updating drivers.

  8. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colbey Kal View Post
    Saying the that both the the sensor not functioning at the same time as the over heating occurring is comparable to winning the lottery is just absurd.

    It's your unprofessional estimation that makes it appear "absurd" - take the average failure rate, raise it to the second power, ... yes, THAT unlikely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colbey Kal View Post
    You may want to consider Occam's Razor yourself. Instead of thinking that these are two separate and independent events the simplest answer would be that the sensor failure is related (either through causation or correlation) to the overheating. Two examples:
    1. The heat sensor failed causing the fans to to not engage.
    2. The original poster has environmental factors (like he smokes* or using the computer outside / in a dusty place) which would lead to systematic problems.
    Occam's razor dictates that you should not add more entities (or simplified: assumptions) than necessary to describe a possible scenario - you added, without need, the additional assumption that the heat sensor is malfunctioning...

    ... and now you add even more, like environmental factors.
    Why not add small green gremlins that sit on your gfx card and push around the pixels??

    I should add "Law of Parsimony" to my all time favourites list - you clearly have not understood what William of Ockham was trying to teach us.


    Btw, your #1 example would fry the gfx card, the computer would do nothing to stop that from happening. Which would mean this thread would have never been posted in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colbey Kal View Post
    I do not know.
    Of course you do not know - because overheating cannot cause these symptoms - which is a 100% NO to overheating, unless you give a damn about Occam's razor again and add the assumption that there are two different errors that occur at the same time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colbey Kal View Post
    I was simply replying to your statement that "overheating would not cause strange things to happen" ...
    But no such "strange things" will happen, because an unpowered computer shows us many symptoms as a common stone - NONE.

    What did you say, it aint unpowered? Read my post again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colbey Kal View Post
    If the error was caused by overheating, and seeing as the computer did not totally shut down, then we see that the issue had not yet reached a point of critical failure i.e. the system was effectively over worked.
    Overworked?

    Are you just trying to be funny here or is that really what you were trying to say? Overworked equals >100% - but a computer cannot do more than 100%, adding more load just means "takes more time".


    Quote Originally Posted by Colbey Kal View Post
    While you are correct in stating the excess heat would not dissipate "within microseconds" the load on the electronics could be reduced to manageable levels within that time frame.

    Maybe i didn't use the correct term and that's why your reply is so... dumb.

    My dictionary provides three different possible english terms:
    heat build-up, heat accumulation and hotspot...

    None of these really matches the term i was looking for - what i wanted to say is that overheating is always result of "pockets" that are disconnected from the (cooling) air flow.

    These "pockets" will not cool down so quickly, no way.
    (because they are disconnected from... yada yada)

    Quote Originally Posted by Colbey Kal View Post
    It would reduce the probability of over heating - especially if the heat sensor is only likely to fail in certain situations and after the computer is out of warranty. (Again, think of an environment with a heavy smoker)


    That one was really priceless.

    That a computer is "out of warranty" has ZERO (adverse) effects on the internal parts, even if it may seem so at times...


    And before we keep talking about heat sensors - do you have the SLIGHTEST idea how these things work? They do not fail just because it's monday or something, heat sensors are incredibly simplistic, such simple parts hardly ever fail.
    Let alone two of them at the same time.
    (not all gfx cards have two, though)


    Bonus question:
    When computers overheat so easily, how come they can use computers (and play EU) in the really HOT parts of the world, where the air (that is supposed to cool the internal parts) is already 40C and more?
    Why don't they fry their gfx card every other day when all the heat sensors are so damn unreliable that they do not shut down in time?
    Last edited by wizzszz; 08-13-2013 at 04:03.
    Not a single fuck shall be given today

  9. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by wizzszz View Post
    And before we keep talking about heat sensors - do you have the SLIGHTEST idea how these things work?
    They monitor heat. They doesn't reduce heat. And how they react (for instance shut system down) depends on software and drivers.

    (I once had a graphic card that would go over 100 oC in a long session of playing. After I realized that I bought an external fan and put it above graphic card and the temperature got more realistic.)


    Quote Originally Posted by wizzszz View Post
    They do not fail just because it's monday or something, heat sensors are incredibly simplistic, such simple parts hardly ever fail.
    Fans can fail though. Also, the smaller they are (imagine size inside a notebook computer) the less efficient they are in transporting air.

    Quote Originally Posted by wizzszz View Post
    Bonus question:
    When computers overheat so easily, how come they can use computers (and play EU) in the really HOT parts of the world, where the air (that is supposed to cool the internal parts) is already 40C and more?
    Why don't they fry their gfx card every other day when all the heat sensors are so damn unreliable that they do not shut down in time?
    1) Their interiors are supplied with AC so though outdoor temperature reaches 40oC indoor temperature stays around 20oC?

    2) They use computers designed to work under hotter conditions, ie desktop computers with good cooling rather than laptops when they run applications that makes temperature in hardware go up (=when they do hardcore gaming instead of poking around in wordpad)?

    I could add, as far as I remember, laptops hasn't been recommended to run entropia. They risk crashing in high population areas like Twin Peaks. (Exception would be laptops explicitly created for gaming.)
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  10. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by wizzszz View Post
    It's your unprofessional estimation that makes it appear "absurd" - take the average failure rate, raise it to the second power, ... yes, THAT unlikely.
    Your math shows that you are assuming that the cause of the of an overheating computer and the heat sensor failure are statistically independent. . . which is the absurd part.

    I also never made the assumption that that the heat sensor failed. I instead gave it as one possible cause for not powering down due to overheating. KikkiJikki and aia each gave other (Better ) explanations.


    Quote Originally Posted by wizzszz View Post
    Of course you do not know - because overheating cannot cause these symptoms - which is a 100% NO to overheating, unless you give a damn about Occam's razor again and add the assumption that there are two different errors that occur at the same time.
    That's fine.

    If you had said; "The symptoms described in the initial post are not consistent with overheating alone. So if there is an issue it is bigger than that" I would not have disagreed.

    You seem to agree with KikkiJikki on this statement. I see no issue.

    But; instead of making that statement you said :
    Quote Originally Posted by wizzszz
    More IT myths - if your computer overheats, it will shut down (some do reboot) without warning.

    There simply is no such state as "almost overheated" that could cause "strange things to happen" - the heat sensors fire long before something like that can happen.
    This is the statement that I, and others, disagree with you about.

    Quote Originally Posted by wizzszz View Post
    But no such "strange things" will happen, because an unpowered computer shows us many symptoms as a common stone - NONE.

    What did you say, it aint unpowered? Read my post again.
    Again, you are assuming that because;1) a computer is intended to shut down when in a heat range outside of normal operating parameters that: 2) "Strange" symptoms from overheating do not often occur.

    You are making an unsupported conclusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by wizzszz View Post
    Overworked?

    Are you just trying to be funny here or is that really what you were trying to say? Overworked equals >100% - but a computer cannot do more than 100%, adding more load just means "takes more time".
    Actually no. Adding a load does not "just mean take more time." That is not the meaning of the word 'load' in electronics. It is device in a circuit with power usage. This load may result in heat in excess of the tolerable amount (i.e. >100% of the intended operational temperature range)

    Quote Originally Posted by wizzszz View Post
    What's the point in having a heat sensor at all if it does not even protect your valuable hardware from overheating?

    . . .

    That a computer is "out of warranty" has ZERO (adverse) effects on the internal parts, even if it may seem so at times...
    It actually surprised me that you seemed to think that there is no value in a reduction of the probability of an unpleasant event, even if there is still a significant probability of the unpleasant event occurring. Oh well.

    You are reversing the order of cause and effect and ignoring probability / statistics, when implying that the "End of Warranty" is a cause, instead of an effect. My statement only 1) Gave a possible example and 2) at most implied correlation not causality. I (mistakenly ? ) assumed you knew the difference. . . .


    A simpler possible example is that the computer manufacturer used components that are all expected to last a determined amount of time (i.e. the ultimate cause) under 'normal' circumstances and in most cases. Say successful operation is within 2-3 (mabye even 4 or 5 !) standard deviations for the expected time-frame. The failure rate after this given time span may not be considered a relevant factor. This is especially true for computers where obsolescence occurs very quickly. The manufacturer would then agree to replace any computers that fail to perform up to the expected life of the components - the warranty. The passage of time implied by the warranty expiration may therefore be seen as a proximate cause. (Alternatively: the warranty ending could be viewed as an intermediate effect) This will be highly correlated with the end effect - internal part failure.

    Therefore; after the time span of the warranty passes, which is interwoven with what components are chosen for manufacturing, the expected probability of part failure will increase.

    In casual terms: That a computer is "out of warranty" has a SIGNIFICANT (adverse) effect on the probability of failure of internal parts. . .
    Last edited by Colbey Kal; 08-13-2013 at 14:57.
    "What the wise do in the beginning, fools do in the end."

  11. #20
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    The OP's question was about whether his issues indicated a hardware problem or a software threat.

    I think, despite the bickering over technicalities, the consensus is that it's due to his hardware. No doubt he'll get RL technical advice on that from someone who can actually see and test his notebook.

 

 
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