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  1. #11
    Guardian saradu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rabonzo View Post
    Well, this part is not entirely true.

    This depends on how your playstyle is. Those who are running a real business in this world, are actually able to make money out of it. It does however not give every single player their money back

    Personally, I was against depositing for the first few years I played it, and I did quite well back then. Went from 0 to having Appartment fully equipped, running around mining and crafting, making profits from trades etc. without making a deposit.

    Think about it... If everyone lost everything, this wouldn't be a "gambling" with a chance to win the big all time high, would it?
    This is a game which I play for fun and of which I am slowly weaning away from. I see many that come here thinking they are going to get rich...... well maybe for those that started when EU first came out yes I am sure they are doing good. Gameplay is not cheap and I have heard many tell me without depositing it isn't fun and I agree, I have sat on my hands and not deposited and so I just stand around. Not badmouthing it other than they really need a new team of programmers but Entropia is just a big gambling casino as far as I am concerned.
    Mrs. Roni RL Jan 21, 2014
    Started EU 11-02-2011


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  3. #12
    Dominant Roni's Avatar
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    Jan 02 2012
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    @Serica:

    I apologise if I started of a bit rude. No, I'm not someone who says all should be for free. I contributed my fair share of RL money to this game. I pay for entertainment. Nothing more, nothing less. The rate this company wastes my money is frankly frightening.

    Lets get back to economics. MindArk created a closed system. What does this mean? It means that they cant spend more (returns to players) then they receive. Unless they get a loan from outside. If they do that they will be owned (interest) by companies outside MindArk. Sounds familiar?

    So how this work out? Many players contribute (as in depositing) to EU. MA takes it share to sustain hardware, pay their employees and make some profit (I learned 5% profit is a minimum to stay healthy). But as Entropia is a closed system it can NEVER have more output then deposited input (except when they get a loan). This logicly takes me to the conclusion that in order for some to profit, others HAVE to lose. Sorry if the term <leechers> offended you.

    Dont jump too quick to the conclusion that other players dont understand the underlaying economics of Entropia when we vent our opinion and its something you dont like to hear. Im fine with the fact that you and other players profit in Entropia. As a fact I know many players who do. But I will not close my eyes or keep my mouth shut for that reason.

    MA doesnt have a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Nor can it magically create money. If they go the loan road they will end up as the USA: owned by China. Sounds far fetched? In a not so far past MindArk was in competition with Second Life to sell their product to China. Neither won. MindArk went in business with SEE, for the same reason. Failed again. So then they came with the LandDeeds. Still far fetched? I pitty those LD owners...they are kinda like the pple who cought up in business that almost brought our RL world economy to a disaster: the cheap morgage sales. Basicly they bought baked air as we say in my country.

    I have a job, a house and a wonderfull wife. For much in my life I am in debt to MMORPG as Entropia. But I know enough about economics (I went to school and stuff) to see EU for what it is. And I still enjoy spending time there.

    Regards, Roni
    Last edited by Roni; 09-27-2013 at 10:42. Reason: grammar

  4. #13
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    You're assuming the player makes a 'loss' when they pay for something.

    This is not necessarily true. Generally, what a sensible player will pay for is a service of some kind. (I'm not going into things like deliberate scams by players etc in this)

    So, for example, a trader (a 'fair' trader) will pay more markup/unit than a player might get on auction, if the player was to try to auction their small quantity of minerals.
    The trader makes their profit by maintaining a client list and selling direct to crafters, or by selling in higher volumes auction with lower fee/unit.
    The trader is also providing a service by allowing faster turnaround of loot sales to the miner - and is taking on some risk, as prices can move before the trader accumulates enough stock to sell.

    Miners and hunters provide a service too. Most crafters don't go out and source their ingredients by doing all their own hunting and mining. Some don't have the inclination, others dont have the skills or knowledge

    And crafters naturally provide a service too. If I'd first had to skill up to craft all the Apis' that I've used before I could hunt with them... but I've never begrudged the markup paid to the crafter.

    Suggesting that one player is making a 'loss' when they pay markup is like saying that when you buy a loaf of bread, you've made a loss if the baker charges more than the cost of the ingredients.
    In fact, you've paid for the service of having those ingredients transformed into a product that is ready for you to use. And you pay for that in RL without even thinking about it.
    How do you pay for that? Well, in RL, if you've got a job you go out and do something that someone (your employer) thinks is worth paying you for.
    If that's more than what it costs you (you personally, not your employer's costs), would you say that your employer is making a loss? Or would you just think he's paying you for something that (at some point) he's going to make a profit on?
    In EU, you can go out and earn it too, if you're willing to put in the time and effort... but you'll usually earn it a darn sight quicker in RL.

    MindArk is like a RL government that levies a small 'consumption-type' tax on everything to pay for important infrastructure (like defence, health, education, roads).

    It's not really a 'closed' economy if you consider that the game creates external products like fun, enjoyment, entertainment, friendship, status.
    And that costs exactly as much as you're willing to pay.

    Some put money in, and get those 'externalities' in exchange.
    Others put in time, and effort, and experience .. and get some money in exchange.

    You might also consider that the Earth as a whole is pretty much a closed economy, with the only external inputs being sunshine and the odd meteorite.
    And so far, that hasn't stopped billions of people participating in one way or another in the global economy. Many of them even make a 'profit' over the course of their lives.

  5. 09-27-2013, 13:34
    Reason
    Rules 2.2, 2.9, 3.6.

  6. #14
    Mature
    Joined
    Sep 16 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serica View Post
    You're not well-informed. It's perfectly possible to make a profit by hunting, mining and/or crafting. But you need to approach it intelligently.
    The concept you most need to understand is 'markup' - what it is, where it comes from, who is willing to pay it and why.
    yeah ...with 40% hunting returns and 20% crafting returns u need to *REALLY* jack up that mu :/ that's if a person can be online for more than 5 mins atm :/ i heard someone made it 3 hours the other day * woot* to them ... it is a game of patience and where some *common sense* must be applied ... then get out ur calculator and work on the *intelligence* aspec .. weaning myself also ..

  7. #15
    Old aVaLON_52's Avatar
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    I don't think any of us are playing the game to turn a profit... and by profit I mean make a living off of those profits.

    We are after all playing a game.

    I mean think about the people who own the Xbox or PS3 or both and then some; and buy games frequently.. I'm sure they rack up some expenses on gaming.. I don't think they are waiting on Microsoft and Sony to cut them a check in the mail.

    Then there's the loss side of things. This could also be on the user's own fault (i.e. using a weapon you're not skilled in or putting a privateer on auction for 1200 ped.) Lessons learned.

    My opinion is between both Roni and Serica; I know that MA has to obviously make money to keep EU running and players happy (most if not some).

    I have this eco-cycle theory; as can be seen in one of my other posts... which involves hunting/mining/crafting economically... then stockpiling loots to properly sell them (beat auction fees with proper MU or sell to other players).

    I think there is a middle ground wheras deposits can be minimal if not at all and players can sustain...... (I hope at least)

  8. #16
    Old
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    Hi,

    Quote Originally Posted by Serica View Post
    MindArk is like a RL government that levies a small 'consumption-type' tax on everything to pay for important infrastructure (like defence, health, education, roads).
    And thus the available money in the EU economy reduces more and more. MA doesn't spent this money in hiring participants to build roads, hospitals, doing useful stuff (as RL govs do) - MA pays it's out-of-game-duties with it, effectively removing this money from the in-game economy.
    MA doesn't "print money" as any RL government would do, too - they drop MU as loot for us, as a bait for more external money to be lured in.

    The MA system is dependent of constant external influx (deposits). Your comparison with a RL government doesn't work. Apples and wooden planks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serica View Post
    It's not really a 'closed' economy if you consider that the game creates external products like fun, enjoyment, entertainment, friendship, status.
    And that costs exactly as much as you're willing to pay.
    That's because it's a game. In an influx-dependent economy like EU nobody would stay if there'd be no other, immaterial, incentives (besides the ones that are "leeching" of this economy). "Fun" is the 2nd in-game currency, and very important for a lot of the EU participants.
    Unfortunately, the "fun" gains have been reduced a lot during the recent years. More and more attention has been given to the complaints of the "big spenders", whose "leeching" had seemed to become harder.
    At the moment, "fun" has to be payed for heavily by any newcomers, because the benevolent view of the developers has been shifted of the whole community of participants to the upper half - these have the better lobby.
    Anything with a good MU (with very few exceptions) is only available to wealthy, seasoned, high skilled & geared players.
    The others might eat Rugaritz, if they cannot afford Lyst ...

    You still can earn some PED's in EU, no doubt. But like Dante said: "Abandon all hope for fun, ye who enter here" ...
    Apples and wooden plank compared, again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serica View Post
    You might also consider that the Earth as a whole is pretty much a closed economy, with the only external inputs being sunshine and the odd meteorite.
    And so far, that hasn't stopped billions of people participating in one way or another in the global economy. Many of them even make a 'profit' over the course of their lives.
    This has lead to a few (very few) ppl living in absurd wealth and decadence, quite a lot (still comparatively few for whole earth) ppl living a rather good live, and billions of the ones remaining seeing their children starving to death with tears in their eyes, more than many every single second.

    We see, earth did it well (as long as we belong to the vast minority of one of the 2 first groups). :/

    And still earth is (necessarily until now at least) a self-supporting system, and EU is far from this yet. EU is still an influx-dependent economy, and this is undeniable. So all your comparisons are moot. Sry.

    Have a good time!

    PS: "Leeching" is a bad word, I know. I'm a "leecher", too, because my MU-value is quite above my deposits. I'd not use it as an derogative meaning usually - after all, "making profit" is the highest goal in EU, right?

    While we don't have a better word for it, we're in a bit of trouble. I have made some profit, as well as ppl like Kikki did - without doing anything wrong.

    Where I see the real "leechers" is where there's strong old connections used to tailor the game to their desires, and where old friendships are used to make the game suiting their needs. And I cannot help to see a lot of this, and I cannot accept. You'll know what I'm talking about.
    Storage space is still limited to 500 items
    (with an exploded item count throughout the universe),
    and my nice Cognac Coat is still bugged -
    will we ever get an VU solving the really important problems?

  9. #17
    Old aVaLON_52's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xandra View Post
    And thus the available money in the EU economy reduces more and more. MA doesn't spent this money in hiring participants to build roads, hospitals, doing useful stuff (as RL govs do) - MA pays it's out-of-game-duties with it, effectively removing this money from the in-game economy.
    MA doesn't "print money" as any RL government would do, too
    It just sorta dawned on me a bit....

    When I was reading that statement.. my first thought was..

    Yeah they do. They create money out of thin air. They create motherships and quads and planets..

    But then I thought about how those things are only of value if people are willing to pay money for them. My thought about creating the money out of thin air came from playing other games that didn't have a cash based economy. But here it's obviously a different story.

    You go on to mention it's just a game.... But for a price.... If the EU economy is dependant on depositers depositing... the thought of that really starts to decay the fun factor.....

    Starting to think I should dip on EU sooner than later...

    Don't concern yourself about using the word leecher.. Nonsense. Say what you like.

  10. #18
    Dominant
    Joined
    Aug 09 2011
    Posts
    484
    Quote Originally Posted by aVaLON_52 View Post
    You go on to mention it's just a game.... But for a price.... If the EU economy is dependant on depositers depositing... the thought of that really starts to decay the fun factor.....
    I don't see why it should decay the fun factor. If there weren't money coming in to the game, it would be impossible for mindark and planet partners to pay their employees and their bills. It's the same for any company. Movie theaters are dependent on depositors depositing. Grocery stores are dependent on depositors depositing.

  11. #19
    Young
    Joined
    Aug 05 2012
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    25
    Quote Originally Posted by xHEINZx View Post
    You dont make Money by hunting,mining,crafting,the only way to earn is sweating,and the peds you earn sweating for 5 hours dont sustain a couple of minuts of mining run or hunting etc. In other words,you only lose Money by "playing the game".
    Sweating money.... Oh well the max bottle of sweat you can make is @600/h for 5 hours should be 3k.... With current price of sweat is more likely 1,5-2 ped /1k sweat..... And you want to atract noobs with this price to play EU.... As I told MA should remove the sweat from mobs that are over 500 HP ... Maybe only this way they can fix the noob concept....

 

 
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