MIndark the JEC,IRS,CIA and you?

[Vap0r]

Also, Echelon II, Black latern and DIRT are now public

[ACEwoK]

omg omg omg!!!

Where's my tinfoil hat?!?!?!

Mah! we're not doing anything wrong so i can't see what all the fuss is about. I'd love to see the Australian government try and tax earnings in here coz then i'd love to stick them with the refund bill for my losses too!!!

Bring it on!!!

[Wollongong]

Could someone explain to me why national governmental agencies of the United States can have a foreign national fly in? Since when do any agencies have ANYTHING to say about Swedish citizens or companies? Who the hell do they think they are?

I'd say, if they want to speak to MA so desperately, they ought to send someone over here, not have them come there, and politely use the doorbell, asking if MA would, please, be so kind, please, to have a little chat over a cup of coffee.

[Traf Rellik]

Originally Posted by Wollongong

Could someone explain to me why national governmental agencies of the United States can have a foreign national fly in? Since when do any agencies have ANYTHING to say about Swedish citizens or companies? Who the hell do they think they are?

I'd say, if they want to speak to MA so desperately, they ought to send someone over here, not have them come there, and politely use the doorbell, asking if MA would, please, be so kind, please, to have a little chat over a cup of coffee.

The other side of this coin is MA going to the US and saying "I know we LOOK like an onling gambling site, but PLEASE PLEASE consider this perspective on everything we've done to avoid this classification. Please allow us to continue to reap in huge sums of money from your citizens without being controlled like one..."

The reality is somewhere in between. For the US to allow MA to conduct financial transactions with US banks, for instance, they must meet certain criteria: be subject to AML (Anti Money Laundering) laws, and agree not to deal with people that are known to fund terrorists, etc...

It's like this for ANY foreign business, and MA very likely JUMPED at the opportunity to give the US a better idea of how it should treat EU. Without allowing MA to say anything, the US would likely take a much more restrictive position.

... and don't think the US is the only government that does this. This probably isn't a good example of the US's bullying tactics (there are plenty of those, but this just isn't likely to be one).

[Frigid]

Originally Posted by dub

, airfare to vegas, airfare to sweden, strippers in your shower... What am I forgetting?

Is that what you spent your Ruga-loot on?

I forget if it is the federal or state return in california, but there are boxes for gambling wins...and losses...they can't just hit you when you win, but must also give you a break when you lose.

I found this odd. There are many "risks" in life and this is like the government condoning excessive gambling.

There is no write-off for binge-drinking...also no write-off for dinner-dates that end with a kiss on the cheek...

[Frigid]

Originally Posted by Traf Rellik

It's like this for ANY foreign business, and MA very likely JUMPED at the opportunity to give the US a better idea of how it should treat EU. Without allowing MA to say anything, the US would likely take a much more restrictive position.

... and don't think the US is the only government that does this. This probably isn't a good example of the US's bullying tactics (there are plenty of those, but this just isn't likely to be one).

It's always better to be pro-active and up-front in these situtaions and help guide policy rather than resist it and have it shoved down you throat. MA, by coming forward early, looks helplful and forthright and that will work in their favor.

Besides, it should only be the US players that are going to get hit with any taxes...not MA...

[Traf Rellik]

Yes, Frigid, I didn't want to come straight out with the balanced view though.

I was basically saying that assuming it was a "demand performance" by the US (in some dictatorship kind of way) is overly reactionary and prejudicial, representing a one sided view of the reason without cause. Hence the "alternative view."

Like you indicated, it was more of an opportunity to influence future decisions and policy in MA's favor. Your points are 100% correct and in line with what I said in that sense, and somewhere between the US being "nice enough" to allow it and "arrogantly demanding it", there is a point where reality determined the core reason for it.

[Wollongong]

Originally Posted by Traf Rellik

The other side of this coin is MA going to the US and saying "I know we LOOK like an onling gambling site, but PLEASE PLEASE consider this perspective on everything we've done to avoid this classification. Please allow us to continue to reap in huge sums of money from your citizens without being controlled like one..."

The reality is somewhere in between. For the US to allow MA to conduct financial transactions with US banks, for instance, they must meet certain criteria: be subject to AML (Anti Money Laundering) laws, and agree not to deal with people that are known to fund terrorists, etc...

It's like this for ANY foreign business, and MA very likely JUMPED at the opportunity to give the US a better idea of how it should treat EU. Without allowing MA to say anything, the US would likely take a much more restrictive position.

... and don't think the US is the only government that does this. This probably isn't a good example of the US's bullying tactics (there are plenty of those, but this just isn't likely to be one).

Excellent points. My main focus of my post was the CIA bit... I seriously feel that the job of a government is to protect it's citizens. I also feel that quite often, governments seem to think it is more important to protect US citizens than their own....

(Not speaking about individuals here, speaking of governments, let this be really clear).

So, if the CIA wants to have access to stuff belonging to a foreigner, they would have to go to the foreigner, and politely ask. And they should ALSO refrain from spying on others, you, him, me. As it is now, the US is doing stuff with my data that my own government considers illegal even...

[Traf Rellik]

Yes, I can't argue with that -- many of us in the US think that too.

There is no fine line delimiting the data they collect here and abroad though, and going through a foreign government to collect information assumes they are willing to help stop the activity in question. Hence, a reasonable amount of what they do abroad is to help safeguard their own citizens, and the issue isn't systemic so much as how difficult it is to keep things in check. Abuse of power and the real need for secrecy go hand in hand.

So while I'd like to see a whole lot less of my government (any government, really) digging into my business, I cannot discount the need for them to be able to do it "just a little." It certainly would be nice if the penulties for abusing that power were more than a simple wrist-slap, and even nicer if there were more safeguards in place to prevent it -- but I'm a realist and it's more effective to stay focussed on the extremes, where the real insanity lies.

[Emerald]

Originally Posted by aridash

As GBE points out, this is really simple, they tax you when you withdraw. The same as how they tax you when you by shares or as someone said, stamps or any thing else. You dont get taxed on the increased value of the share or stam while you still own it, you only have a tax liability upon sale. Tax man is interested that its not used for fraud or avoidance more than anything else.

There has been no progress on taxation of internet trades dispite 15 years or so of looking at it and many legislators are very hostile towards it. so why are they going to be any different to MMO/virtual worlds? It needs too much cooperation between all nations and they cant even agree on legislation such as Intellectual Property.

I think that it is true. In this case, you have truly not won anything until you withdraw. I am finishing my last class for a degree in accounting and I have thought hard about how to classify the money that I have ingame. This is how I see it. The money spent in game is essentially gambling loss or the same as money invested in stocks. It is irrelevant to IRS until it is either sold or interest is paid to the individual. So unless one withdraws, there is no income. Much of what we earn in game is not money that is realizable except in the game. Markup is not guarrenteed money.