EF Rules Discussion

"No, you misunderstand.
I have absolutely nothing against people having their own ideas and opinions. However not every idea and opinion belongs in this forum."

I am sure that you have nothing against people haveing their own ideas..but I do think you have a problem with people expressing them, if you disagree with them. By your own words and the standing rules, only those 'lines' of discussion that you approve will be allowed to stand.


"That is what it means.
About moderating, your ofcrouse allowed to disagree with a moderator in discussing the matter.
Your also allowed to disagree with the rules and the way we enforce them.
Your allowed to go "one step higher" in the chain and take the case to the admins, but flaming a moderators choice to handle things in a open thread is not the way to go about it. Understand?"

Yes, I can disagree with a moderator, in private, and 'beg or plead' that they might be wrong. Please think about this. If a Mod decides to lock a thread, then they have already decided that they don't like the topic being discussed. What real chance does a player have in opening a private message in the hopes that they may change the mind of the Mod?

I think you have a 'red herring' here. We decided what is right or wrong, and you must come to us and perhaps we may change our minds? Just how is that anywhere near the concept of free expression of ones thoughts?




"Also, remember that all the rules doesnt mean you will be banned as you break them, -however if we notice a pattern of lack of respect of the rules, even though small violations, you might be sent on a little "vacation", and if the violation is bad enough, it will result in perm ban."

Again, the implied threat of temp or perm ban if you don't follow the party line.


Please tell me what I'm missing?

DS

[Jag Ly]

The owner , the admins and the mods have the right and the power to enforce their private opinions and feelings. It's their right because it's their forum and their work and risk. Maybe this is what you're missing. They invest money, time and work , and they have a goal. You are invited and welcome to use the forum , as long as your actions does not interfere in a negative manner with that goal. If the owner , admin and mods makes a mistake, is their risk. From here , their right .

[711]

Originally Posted by LokiDarkStar

"No, you misunderstand.
I have absolutely nothing against people having their own ideas and opinions. However not every idea and opinion belongs in this forum."

I am sure that you have nothing against people haveing their own ideas..but I do think you have a problem with people expressing them, if you disagree with them. By your own words and the standing rules, only those 'lines' of discussion that you approve will be allowed to stand.


"That is what it means.
About moderating, your ofcrouse allowed to disagree with a moderator in discussing the matter.
Your also allowed to disagree with the rules and the way we enforce them.
Your allowed to go "one step higher" in the chain and take the case to the admins, but flaming a moderators choice to handle things in a open thread is not the way to go about it. Understand?"

Yes, I can disagree with a moderator, in private, and 'beg or plead' that they might be wrong. Please think about this. If a Mod decides to lock a thread, then they have already decided that they don't like the topic being discussed. What real chance does a player have in opening a private message in the hopes that they may change the mind of the Mod?

I think you have a 'red herring' here. We decided what is right or wrong, and you must come to us and perhaps we may change our minds? Just how is that anywhere near the concept of free expression of ones thoughts?




"Also, remember that all the rules doesnt mean you will be banned as you break them, -however if we notice a pattern of lack of respect of the rules, even though small violations, you might be sent on a little "vacation", and if the violation is bad enough, it will result in perm ban."

Again, the implied threat of temp or perm ban if you don't follow the party line.


Please tell me what I'm missing?

DS

Loki,

The part that you are missing is that if you disagree with how a moderator has moderated your posts, you can contact an administrator (either Mindbuster or myself), and ask that we take a look at the decision of the moderator.

You are also perhaps not considering that Mindbuster choose the existing moderators because of their good judgement, maturity and sense of fairness. Many many times the moderators have unbanned a member, or apologized for a misunderstanding or mistake.

No person is infallible, we are all human. I do however have faith in ALL of the current moderator's sense of fairness, good judgement and ability to correct a decision and admit thier mistakes. Ultimately, the job of moderating and administering any forum comes down to simple good judgement, and in this respect, I really feel that Mindbuster has done a very good job building the EF team. The overwhelming feedback from the majority of members has been very positive, which is a big part of the reason EF has grown so quickly, and has become the valuable EU resource that it is today.

I will reemphasize what I said in the first post in this thread: by making the forum rules clearer and removing as much of the ambiguity as possible, the goal is to give the moderation process more consistency and transparency. With a clear set of rules, members are able to know better what is likely to cause posts or content to be edited or removed. By the same token, a clear set of rules allows for effective auditing of a moderator's activities, to ensure fairness and impartiality.

[Mikah]

Originally Posted by LokiDarkStar

Yes, I can disagree with a moderator, in private, and 'beg or plead' that they might be wrong. Please think about this. If a Mod decides to lock a thread, then they have already decided that they don't like the topic being discussed. What real chance does a player have in opening a private message in the hopes that they may change the mind of the Mod?

This I can personally say it's not always true...
Long ago, in a thread I will not mention as it does not matter at this point, a very important and revealing thread was locked by a mod..

The crowd disagreed and expressed their opinions on the matter (per pm's and on posts), per this, the moderator decided that the reasons and concerns addressed were valid and thus, the thread was unlocked once again...

It is possible to change a mods point of view, if you raise enough valid questions to base your reasons..
I'm not gonna comment on any other topics, but my point is.. It is Possible to have a Locked thread Unlocked after persuading a mod to do so.. it all depends on the reasons, motives and situation- just the same way they can delete a thread with good reasons to back it up..

I'm not very familiar with the new rules, the situation above happened way before any of this... whether this has changed or not I don't know..

As others have posted about postive responses from Mods in the past, they speak from their experences. I can only speak from mine.

I do not wish to kick a dead horse, but to provide and example from my experence.

I saw a players auto fap'ing i posted about it was was told this is not allowed. Ok, I did a wrong thing i guess and after the thread was locked, i started another thread about the matter. And I was banned for 2 weeks. To be frank, I've got nothing to say about that, I disagree with the mod's decission that the topic is not allowed and went on posting and was banned...cool.

Then only a few days later there are numerous post about people cheating, one of the longest i've ever see, i send PM's to mods and MB, I get, you were banned for not following a mod's direction, yet the very same thing is now allowed and i serve the full two weeks ban.

Perhaps, i'm not expressing myself well enough. but the whole chain of events seems to be...today a MOD does not like an issue. a player is banned. A few days later the issue is some how OK, and the player that first brought it up, is still banned.

So, you say trust the Mod's. I find that a bit hard to do at this moment.

A simple question, if i see cheating going on, may i post about it here? If so, why was my thread locked and me banned. If I can not post about some cheating going on, then I guess, we can draw our own conclusions...

DS..

[Jag Ly]

Originally Posted by LokiDarkStar

As others have posted about postive responses from Mods in the past, they speak from their experences. I can only speak from mine.

I do not wish to kick a dead horse, but to provide and example from my experence.

I saw a players auto fap'ing i posted about it was was told this is not allowed. Ok, I did a wrong thing i guess and after the thread was locked, i started another thread about the matter. And I was banned for 2 weeks. To be frank, I've got nothing to say about that, I disagree with the mod's decission that the topic is not allowed and went on posting and was banned...cool.

Then only a few days later there are numerous post about people cheating, one of the longest i've ever see, i send PM's to mods and MB, I get, you were banned for not following a mod's direction, yet the very same thing is now allowed and i serve the full two weeks ban.

Perhaps, i'm not expressing myself well enough. but the whole chain of events seems to be...today a MOD does not like an issue. a player is banned. A few days later the issue is some how OK, and the player that first brought it up, is still banned.

So, you say trust the Mod's. I find that a bit hard to do at this moment.

A simple question, if i see cheating going on, may i post about it here? If so, why was my thread locked and me banned. If I can not post about some cheating going on, then I guess, we can draw our own conclusions...

DS..

a simple answer : " ....depends on who was cheating and depends on if today i wanna promote such a subject in my forum " .
Loki, your atitude is very noble and fair. Unfortunately , the life have nothing to do with any of these. You are looking at the forum from the player's point of view. There are always at least 2 point of views in anything.

You are 100 percent correct.

In that there are 2 sides or more to any issue. I think my side if fully explained. I do not think that the Mod's and Adm's side is fully explained.

JMHO...

As for your view point on my 'simple question', I respect it, but I don't think you are an admin or mod. Therefore, we don't know what they think.

DS...

[Jag Ly]

Originally Posted by LokiDarkStar

You are 100 percent correct.

In that there are 2 sides or more to any issue. I think my side if fully explained. I do not think that the Mod's and Adm's side is fully explained.

JMHO...

As for your view point on my 'simple question', I respect it, but I don't think you are an admin or mod. Therefore, we don't know what they think.

DS...

Exactely. And i dont need to know what they think. Ppls changes. Opinions changes. Goals changes. Rules changes.At this momment my goal , my fun and my interest is to use this forum. My position ? Im the user . For as long as my acts in EF fits the owner's goals and interests. He have the power to enforce them .

" Panta Rei ".

" expressing yourself in a forum is a privilege, not a right "

Again,

You are 100 percent right. The owner of a forum is just that an owner.

But, what I guess I'm trying to say is that in reality, a forum is a business. If the forum owner does not listen and respect what his users say, then he will be the owner of an empty fourm.

If I am making a product, and a fourm is a product, then I must respond to the desires and want's of my customers. If not the product is not bought and I go out of business.

711 opened the forums to a disscusion about the rules.

I feel that the response from the Admins is very weak, I have sent PM's a number of times in the past 3 weeks to mods and admin, I've sent email and to date the response i got was "you were banned for not following a mod's dirrections' and you will get to post in 2 days and 3 hours from this email.

I recevied no feedback about my ban was fair or not, not discussion at all about how things might have changed, considering the ongoing threads about 'cheating' and to date I have gotten no feed back other than what has been posted here after my ban ended.

Therefore, I must assume that the 'goal' of this forum is not for the players, but for a 'different' customer. I wonder who that might be?

DS

[e-lite]

711 stupid rules Kidding though. But yeah, there sure are alot of things we cannot do. Been a while since I read the rules, didn't know there where so meny.