Question: Confused about "how armor works"

[BillM]

I don't understand how armor works entirely.

I read the How Armor Works thread, and thought I understood things.

I decided to do a test to see that I understood things and that their calculations are correct and that other information is correct...

So, I put on some Shogun. Just 3 pieces; Harness, Foot, and Shin; Other body parts are uncovered. Shogun protects at 10 versus Stab as well as some other areas for a total of (I think) 45.

I found a lone Sabakuma Young not too far from a turret and ran out and took one hit. (Sabakuma make a nice test because they run slow and I can assure only one hit easily) According to Entropedia dot info they do a maximum of (I think) 15 damage which is 100% stab. According to what I wrote down at the time, (I'm pretty sure this is right) I took 8.7 points of damage.

Then I ran to the turret to let it die and ran on to check the decay on the 3 Shogun parts.

I found decay on all 3 parts. .01, .02, and .01
Harness 38.24 to 38.23
foot 12.74 to 12.72
shin 12.74 to 12.73

This doesn't seem right at all. If the mob does a max of 15, then I should recieve a max of 5 if it hits me where I have armor and quite likely just 1. If it hits me where I do not have armor then I get the full hit, but the armor should not decay at all.

Shogun has a total protection of 45hp so it should have a minimum decay of .45pec, but what I am seeing is a decay of a full 1 pec on 2 parts and 2 pec on another part.

Here's what doesn't make sense:
Should I have decay on 3 pieces of armor for just 1 hit?
Should the decay on the armor be exact amounts of pec rather than fractional amount? (like .45)

(The method I used to calculate the pre- and post- value of the armor parts was to put the in the TT Sell window along with some sweat. They all had the values stated above without any sweat and also the same values with up to 999 sweat. Then on the one-thousanth sweat added, it tripped over to one higher value. So, I think that means that in all cases there was no fractioal hidden value.)

Does my method of determining exact value not work anymore?

There is certainly something that I'm not understanding, here.

I'll do it again if anyone thinks I should, but it's so simple I don't see how I could have messed it up. Misunderstanding on my part is more plausable than poor execution.

Any suggestions would be apprecieted.
--BillM

[itree]

You do realise that there is an equipping tax of 1 PEC every time you put on an armor piece right? That will probably explain the 1 PEC decay on each piece. There might also be a rounding error due to repair terminals not showing fractional PEC costs.

So to get an accurate reading you should first put on the armor, then repair it to full while still wearing it. Due to not being able to see fractions again I don't see how you will accurately judge decay of 1 hit though

[ForrestPark]

+rep itree.

It hit you on the foot, methinks :-)

[Dorsai]

My interpretation of your results follows:

Sabakuma young do 13max damage, so the max you will get through a piece of shogun would be 3 (Excluding crits).
You got hit for 8.7 so the mob must have hit you on an un-armoured body part.

The 1pec decay on the armour was the result of all non (L) armours decaying 1 pec when you put them on. (as already said.)

[BillM]

Originally Posted by Dorsai

My interpretation of your results follows:

Sabakuma young do 13max damage, so the max you will get through a piece of shogun would be 3 (Excluding crits).
You got hit for 8.7 so the mob must have hit you on an un-armoured body part.

The 1pec decay on the armour was the result of all non (L) armours decaying 1 pec when you put them on. (as already said.)

ok...
I know about the equiping tax mentioned by you and itree. I thought it was 3 pec, so that is what I was looking for and didn't see it. If it is just one pec, then I wasn't watching for that. I put it on, I took it off, I put it on, then I thought... "I must be confused about the equiping tax... They are not doing that now!"

A 1-pec tax would totally explain everything. Except....
I should have seen a change in value right away. Right-clicking on the item and selecting "item info" should have shown the change. That would totally explain the .01 decay for 2 items and the .02 decay for the other, since I did put one item on and take it off one extra time looking for that decay.

Maybe there is a bug where that special decay doesn't show up in the item info screen. That seems very reasonable. I'll go test that now.

Thanks for the suggestion.
--BillM

[Dorsai]

It's not uncommon for things like the decay to take a short time to actually show up.

MA's database must have literally millions of entries, one for each item in game, so it might take a few seconds for the database entry for your foot-guards to get updated to reflect the decay of putting it on. If you re-check before the entry has been updated (the request is still in a queue of requests awaiting processing) you will see no change.
I put an item in by booth, and the value of the item was shown as the value of the item I had removed, not the item I had dropped. It took a good 10 seconds before I could set the price correctly, i just got an error if i tried.

[BillM]

I think you guys are right. It was the equiping tax. I just tried it agin and the tax was applied imediatly and DID show up in the "item info" price.

When I thought, "I must be confused about the equiping tax... They are not doing that now!" I must have been delierious or something. They are definately doing that. So how I will go do the whole thing over. I want to see that I am getting some expected decay on exactly 1 armor part, just so I can start to understand how things work. >=.45 would be nice. That's what i think it should be.

Will post results here.

Thanks for clearing up my delusions.
--BillM

[BillM]

Originally Posted by Dorsai

It's not uncommon for things like the decay to take a short time to actually show up.

...

Ah... That's the key. Yes, a delay in information update is likely.

By the way, I am not using the repair terminal to determin value, but rather the trade terminal with various amounts of sweat. 0 to 1000. (If 0 to 999 sweat in the sell window with the item doesn't change it's value, 1000 sweat does then the value is axact. I am assuming that still works.)

However when I figured out (incorrectly) that the equip tax wasn't being applied. I didn't use that method. I just looked at the item info screen which may have had "lag".

I'm still going to go in and make sure, but I think you guys got it. I think the creature hit me for full damage (not in the foot, I had foot armor. It probably bit me in the face and I didn't notice.) and 100% of the decay was just the "tax."
--bm

[Dorsai]

Originally Posted by BillM

By the way, I am not using the repair terminal to determin value, but rather the trade terminal with various amounts of sweat. 0 to 1000. (If 0 to 999 sweat in the sell window with the item doesn't change it's value, 1000 sweat does then the value is axact. I am assuming that still works.)

From what I have read else where this is one of the most accurate methods available, but have not tried it myself.

However when I figured out (incorrectly) that the equip tax wasn't being applied. I didn't use that method. I just looked at the item info screen which may have had "lag".

I agree with your thoughts. Just Lag.

[BillM]

Just went in to check things...
(I know many of you think that this is academic, but for a noob like me, understanding and verification are still very closely linked.)

Took armour off and put it back on and DID see the 1 pec decay this time. I guess I just wasn't being very carful the first time.

So this time I went out with:
harness 38.20
shin 12.70
foot 12.69

My one convenient lone Samakuma Young was there again even though it got turreted before. I faced away from it and backed into it until it attacked. It hit for:
8.5
6.7
12.5
11.6
2.2
and then I ran.

I experienced no decay beyond the tax on 2 items.
On the harness in had a tt of 38.19 after tax.

I was able to add 655 sweat to the tt without changing the value and 656 sweat pushed it to 38.20. So, (If I'm doing this right...) It had a value of 38.198344 and experienced a decay of .00656 beyond the tax.

All of the hits over 5.0 should have been on parts not covered by armor and the 2.2 must have hit armor.

For a hit just over 10hp, the armor should absorb 10(for stab on Shogun) and I should get the rest.

According to JimmyB's "how armor works" post and those that helped with research, the formula for decay on armor with durability less than 10000(1700 in the case of shogun) should be:

Decay = (0.003 x dmg^1.75 + 0.05 x dmg) x (1 - Durability/100000)

If dmg=10, then on a caculation of decay= 0.657334... (that's just pluggin' in the numbers)

which is pretty close to .656 (AND we seem to get the benifit of rounding down!! Woowho!!)

So...
Thanks for your help above itree and Dorsai. Thanks to JimmB and others for the armor research.

On a side note... I've been trying to figure out if it's time to start wearing armor in some situations, and what I see it that if my armor absorbs 10hp and decays only .66 and if I fap/vivo between combat for around 10hp per pec, then I should start letting the armor take the hit and not not decaying the fap. (Fapping skill gains aside)

Thanks again,
--BillM