Gaming Loot Mindset

[Rentonx]

Originally Posted by valentin

Depositing doesn't give you an advantage

well if you look at it logically, depositing does give you an advantage... Simply see it like this:

deposit = have funds to last longer in your particular profession...

More time you spend on doing profession = more chance you will hit something big....

i don't think i can put it in more simpler terms

[valentin]

Originally Posted by Rentonx

well if you look at it logically, depositing does give you an advantage... Simply see it like this:

deposit = have funds to last longer in your particular profession...

More time you spend on doing profession = more chance you will hit something big....

i don't think i can put it in more simpler terms

Yes i think thats the true but then we have 1 more problem left and that is.

The loot i get. !!!

I could swear i remember a post from Marco saying it depends on the avatar that actually loots it

[Tyra]

Originally Posted by valentin

Yes i think thats the true but then we have 1 more problem left and that is.

The loot i get. !!!

I could swear i remember a post from Marco saying it depends on the avatar that actually loots it

Of course its depending on the avatar. But there are several factors that effect your loots (which is obvious but I still state it). Depositing is one of them according to me. But there are many more factors that needs to be synchronized in order to get good loots and perhaps you miss some important parts in order for it to be synchronized?

[T3h_plonker]

feck double posted for some reason :S

[T3h_plonker]

odd how do you explain that 3 years ago you shot monster and got loot then.

is it not the same game ?

fyi the highlight of my week has been that i looted a pair of paladin shoes !!! :O

[Sirhc]

Originally Posted by Dion Red Strike

So, what you expect is MA to 'throw a loot bone' at people on occasion to keep them happy? (Note, I ask this in a non-negative way, but the words don't come out right in text...)

I would expect MA to run EU like any other customer based business where you want to gain and retain customers. I don't think they have a huge problem gaining customers with big things like CE2, planetpartners, and marketing but I think when it comes to retention and being a customer service orientated business they can improve. Its impossible to grow to huge MMO levels if your current customer base cannot vouche for your MMO on some level. EU mostly revolves around the loot, people are happy when they loot out of ordinary or useful things whether it be mining, crafting, or hunting.

Don't get me wrong I want EU and MA to succeed and that is why I write what I write but I also want people to feel like they had a pleasurable experience in EU rather than leaving with feeling like EU is a money sink, its impossible to advance, or loot anything that can help your advancement without mortgaging your home to afford that item. There are some serious stigmas attached to EU in the gaming community and that is the community that will make or break EU in the future, since most of us who care about EU have already signed on that dotted line.

To answer the question in your quote: Sure why not? they have a huge library of items of various levels. Maybe someone who loots Shadow shoes today deposits tomorrow to buy the rest of the set and then hunts big mobs everyday after or someone who loots a (R) mining amp ramps up their mining1000% churing decay and the economy or that crafter loots a great BP and churns those resources happily making items useful to all at decent prices. They should be doing anything to stimulate happy participation, don't you think?

[Xandra]

Whow,

this has become an interesting thread!
Thx, Sirhc, for adding some new arguments, especially this one is of importance, IMHO:

Originally Posted by Sirhc

They [MA] should be doing anything to stimulate happy participation, don't you think?

And I'm glad, Red, that we seem to slowly reach common ground :) There's still differences in the way we judge the current loot situation, I guess, and I'll concentrate on this now.

But before I'd like to have some words of the dreaded Shogun Harness we used as example:

In my opinion Shogun is one of the best armors for rising newcomers in this game (provided they like Atrax/ Atrox/ etc. more than the usual Argonauts ...), and my set of it was the first I have completed and would be one of the last I'd sell, besides Goblin. And this makes my heart bleeding, every time I loot a part of it:
The participants that have use for it are exactly these that are leaving in big numbers! These are the ones that have completed their sweating phase, that have maxed their TT tools, that have deposited a few times and have now realized EU can be a gigantic money sink if not played very careful.

For a long time I have collected all Shogun I looted (and all Goblin, Pixie, FAP- 10 - 28 etc. ...) to cheaply distribute to friendly newbies, often as free reward for reaching the next TP, or as gift after a nice team hunt.
Usually I had them on FL after, and nearly always they was gone some weeks later. "I cannot afford this", "This game is crazy expensive" are quotes that I heard from some of them. So instead of wasting the TT value of my looted Shogun parts I now TT it right now, at least it helps me surviving then. Heard bleeding.

Yes, EU is by far the most expensive MMORPG like "game" out there, if you're not willing to completely forgo any fun. It can be rather cheap, I know - I'm playing about 2 months for my 25 EUR deposits these days - but then it's a dull, boring, mindless grinding, at least in the skill region I'm in. And doing anything exciting very fast consumes all of the PED's that would keep you going for weeks otherwise ...

"Happy participation"? No, I guess. And this is the reason all of the malls are very empty whenever I visit, and the reason once crowded places like PA or Twins are sparsely populated now. Even Cape Corinth peninsula, Zychions Maffo/ Atrox plains or the Orthos West area often are completely empty when I visit - these are the places where "advanced Noobs" once competed for every single mob ...
Much too many ppl are leaving even before reaching the phase when they would hunt there.

And so I'd like to advice the balancing manager to check the ways of participation of the different groups of participants, and to act accordingly. In my opinion:

• Average loot has been reduced too much (needed to feed the increased amount of "big loots"). 5-digit PED HoF's nearly every other day, and quite some 4-digits every day are nice to those that get, but very few of this is looted by the overwhelming number of participants. OK, some "phat lootz" on tiny critters every now and then, but this isn't enough to keep them newcomers depositing!
  
  When the usual return is as low as it is this days, when you have to exactly calculate your gear to the exact mob to be as eco as possible for not to loose this much, something is wrong. For sure, MA has to get it's part, and for sure, nobody in a clear state of mind will expect to get rich playing EU, but the cost/ hour of an at least somewhere interesting gaming experience should be not this high, I feel.
  
  This was aimed at the average TT value of loot, where we all know it has inevitably to be lower than the cost to kill/ mine/ craft - but the cost/ loot ratio is too low now, and the too frequent "big loots" rarely help the follow-ups, thus drying up the urgently needed supply of PED deposits.
  
  The participants complaining ("whining") often express exactly this, and ignoring it isn't the best to help growing EU, I fear. More happy participants would deposit more money, more money would give better loot, better loot would keep more participants - OK?
  So it is short-sighted by a lot of the "better-skilled" participants to defend their share of "phat lootz" - it's shooting their own leg, IMHO.
  .
• "Cool items" in loot is different - it doesn't depend on TT. A "cool item" is something that has a markup making it worth to put into auction (overcoming the stupidly high auction fees), or something that is useful, or both. Something that makes you happy when appearing in loot window!
  
  Unhappily the invention of (L) items has made a lot of the UL items obsolete (smaller weapons/ FAP's), and the loss of new regrowing participants has made a lot of the other items nearly worthless (smaller armors, see above/ smaller (L) gear).
  
  Add that many of the now usual dropping things (oils, common hides/ wool, paints, refiners) have tiny TT, and low markups, thus making them TT fodder for everyone not "rich" enough to be able to collect insane amounts - check how many different ones of those exist, calculate how much PED it would tie to storage when you need to collect at least 50 PED's TT of each to be able to auction with the most tiny of a profit! 50 PED TT @ 105% will yield 52.5 PED, subtract auction fees - and remember, this are 5K of Animal Hide!
  
  An idea would be to depreciate these by factor 100 - the same amount in TT would drop over time, but an Animal Hide now would be worth 1 PED. The crafter would need 1 hide instead of 100, equally. Do this for paints, wool, oils, all of this stuff! Looting such an item every now and then (same TT over given time!) would be much more incentive, psychologically. Wouldn't it?
  
  Right, but what would make the usual 5 PEC loot then? Since gambling shouldn't look like gambling these days the re-invention of PEC in loot isn't viable. But what about ammo? Or maybe a new item ("raw energy residue") that is worth 1 pec/ each, that is craftable into desired ammo with lowest possible crafting skill, requiring only a transportable "ammo refiner"? And that is able to be used in a "transportable gear repair device"?
  
  This way we'd loot mostly "raw energy residue" that would be of use immediately, if needed. Looting any other thing would be a nice surprise, because it would have some worth. Even if we didn't loot more then today, every now and then there would be a "Whow"!
  
  Add some (L) stuff dropping more often that is of use - not more useless S30/ CB5 plz, maybe more Rikers (L) or similar?
  They are a good example of "nice loot" - heavy decay, so no big competition to the crafted gear, but enough power to make the looter happy. Check values of UL2 to Breer M3a, and you'll understand - the Breer is slightly better eco-wise, but the Riker is more fun, has more punch, and thus has better markup. More UL2 dropping wouldn't hurt much the M3a market, maybe the values could be even more close thus making the M3a even better in comparison, but looting an UL2 still would be a great experience, an incentive to the dedicated player.
  
  Additionally much of the low-end UL items could get dramatically reduced in numbers looted, nobody uses it anyways. Loot numbers might be adjusted in a manner that a minimal markup of 3 PED is assured, even if it means that some items worth only to collectors wouldn't drop nearly anymore. Who needs more FAP-5's in fact? Wouldn't you be happy to know that you've looted "something nice" as soon as you see the colored "decay line"?
  .
• The "Great EU Firewall of Skill Improvement" starting at about 4K is most frustrating! Being able to skill up to this limit in a hurry, then getting braked to the speed of a snail caught in concrete is most annoying. Well, Red counts in 10 years of playing, but IMHO this is way beyond the imagination of most of the participants. Without a small improvement every other week it becomes boring and senseless very fast, and I'm not talking about an improvement of poor 20 skill points/ month!
  
  Especially when it is obvious that a certain class of players didn't have to suffer this torture, and now is happily enjoying their for-us unbelievable amounts of skills! Since it might not be possible to reset their skills gained in hard work like "getting whacked by Chirpies" or "FAPping in an acid pool", or using tools we'll never get our hands on, the skill limit needs to be adjusted ways higher, and a straight progression needs to be re-invented. For all.
  
  Failing to do so will further confirm the division between the "early adaptors" that utilized a multitude of errors MA had made (crazy drops of high value gear, possibility of "duping" most valuable items, and the way they got their skills). This is a constant source of greed and anger for the "laters", and the only solution would be to give those a clear & reachable way to improve further.
  
  For sure this would need a ladder open at the top end, with limits pushed farther regularly. The upcoming planets would be a very nice chance to implement, IMHO. A little braking in the progress of the top participants (for a limited time) to allow a little closing up of the most determined participants, not much - this alone would give a nice goal for many of us!
  
  And a clear and working route to improve for any determined noob, not running against concrete walls like today.

What I'm experiencing at the moment is the exact contrary of what Sirhc has said, and so I'm quoting for second time:

Originally Posted by Sirhc

They [MA] should be doing anything to stimulate happy participation, don't you think?

Well, I'm far from Uber, in the eyes of most of this forums members I'm just another crazy Noob, getting in trouble even from a tiny Hogglo old. OK, I am, and Hogglo Old eats me alive. Even Hogglo young has a good chance to feast on me, even if in my best gear.

But I know, too, that I'm member of the class of players that is the overwhelming number of participants of EU. And I know that very few new participants join this group, by far not enough to compensate for the number of participants of this group that leave. Whenever I talk to similar skilled participants I get told tales of frustration and unhappiness, whining?

Right, waste amounts of newbies get lured in every day, populating Swamp Camp and Nea's. For a while, until they fade away...
Right, a lot of relatively high skilled players enjoy this game. But very, very few actually manage to join this group without wasting more money/ time most possible participants are able to drop.
And the still biggest number of participants, those between the mentioned groups, is frustrated, bored and doesn't have any realistic goal anymore. We might talk ourselves into some goals, and keep wasting money, but how long will this last?

I have sworn I will reach 5K in LongBlades. Since new years day of 2007 (when I reached 4K) I have made about 700 points, so, after my recent invention of low cost skilling, I'll reach the 5K in autumn. I've been told that after 5K skilling does slow down even more, so I don't even think of skilling more - spending many years of my life and a lot of my hard earned money to reach just what some happy earlier birds got on a silver plate?

I'm collecting ESI's now. Maybe I'll some day have use of them.

Btw., I'm more & more often these days into another MMORPG where my Gnomish she-rouge loves to waste huge Tauren warriors. Where loot isn't this important, but where there's a lot of goals to reach, where there's not such a "Great Firewall of Skill Improvement", where my monthly costs are a fraction of what I used to deposit into EU still some months ago, where I have fun whenever I log in!

I still love EU, I still think it has great potential, but I am sure, too, that the Balancing Manager is completely wrong.

Guess I don't have to quote Sirhc for the third time.

Have fun!

[SpikeBlack]

Xandra you've summed up pretty much my feelings, I don't think I disagree with a single part.

I don't believe CE2 will be start of a new boom period in EU that many believe it will be. Sure we'll see new players but unless improvements are made to the gameplay we'll still see the high turn over rate we have now plus we'll loose some of the current player base who are not in the financial situation to buy a whole new pc in order to play.

[MistyDawn]

Originally Posted by SpikeBlack

Sure we'll see new players but unless improvements are made to the gameplay we'll still see the high turn over rate we have now plus we'll loose some of the current player base who are not in the financial situation to buy a whole new pc in order to play.

There has always been a 'high' turn over rate.

The problem is too many people put too much in, too early and expect too much back too soon and end up quitting after 3-6 months and whining about how crap it is and how MA 'ripped them off'.

They want to have top end equipment within 12 weeks but that's not how it works and no matter how much people are told this they still dump thousands of USD's in, and then when they realise how deep they are into EU they get scared and cry foul.

Anyway, I digress, back to CE2...

It might not be the boom that some people expect but at least MA will have some spare cash and some more time to devote to enhancing the Universe.

You'll still be able to run it, just not at full settings.
I'm waiting to upgrade my pc, but don't know if to go X2, Phenom or Intel QuadCore, I like the looks of Phenom and Crossfire but can maybe Intel Quad and SLI is the way forward?

Choice is a bad thing....

[valentin]

Originally Posted by MistyDawn

There has always been a 'high' turn over rate.

The problem is too many people put too much in, too early and expect too much back too soon and end up quitting after 3-6 months and whining about how crap it is and how MA 'ripped them off'.

They want to have top end equipment within 12 weeks but that's not how it works and no matter how much people are told this they still dump thousands of USD's in, and then when they realise how deep they are into EU they get scared and cry foul.

Anyway, I digress, back to CE2...

It might not be the boom that some people expect but at least MA will have some spare cash and some more time to devote to enhancing the Universe.

You'll still be able to run it, just not at full settings.
I'm waiting to upgrade my pc, but don't know if to go X2, Phenom or Intel QuadCore, I like the looks of Phenom and Crossfire but can maybe Intel Quad and SLI is the way forward?

Choice is a bad thing....

I dont 8 i have been here 2 years ) .. but look i am active player have now 210k in skill got 1636 globals and hofs will get soon commando and mineral sense allways use oreamps 103 -104 hunting all highlevel animals exept desplator and the best loot so far was a hof at 1680 ped and 1 semi-uber item one ESI on TT=464 other mid-level items was 1 Jaguar foot guards and one Bravo rest is only low-level stuff i dont know but i feel someting is wrong and yes i am a good depositor ( i think ) about 12-15k peds/month so far.