Mindark answers Skatteverket

[JohnBates|MindArk]

My two pecs: I am happy to pay taxes, as I really love the US and I am clear that I get a lot of value from living here. I believe Mindark feels the same way about Sweden. And others about their countries. (Not that I agree with how the money is spent, quite often... but that's another matter and why I vote.)

I think the taxman has to be careful not to kill the golden goose, though. I think it's a good idea to let the gosling grow up and figure out how to get as many golden eggs as possible, instead of one unsatisfying meal of baby goose.

At the end of the day, if someone is making a profit in a virtual world they should probably pay taxes on it just to be safe. However, (I agree with you!) does that mean people who spend money playing in these worlds can claim it as a business loss? I think there is still a lot the tax authorities need to think about.


JKB

[Macce]

Originally Posted by Argentum

LOL

Think this would result in losses for skatteverket.
More loosers than winners.
Tax deduction for us loosing money is fine with me

/Argentum

Exactly, its many avatars that cycles 1000:nds of peds each day thru ammo, bombs and in the crafting machine so the turnover will come quick for those.

Also expect tax on ammo and other TT stuff since MA sure sells more than 30k kronor a year from TT But also if u sell back to tt you should recieve tax back, lol

this gonna be a nice soup

[Darkaner]

Couldn't they just have said that you must pay 30% on your annual profit. That would have been a lot easier to control, both for players and Skatteverket, and something that we all could agree on. This whole VAT thing is just ridiculous.

[Nor Alien]

I put my money in through a friends avatar!!! In a zone where its tax free!!!

[Nighthawk]

Originally Posted by Nor Alien

I put my money in through a friends avatar!!! In a zone where its tax free!!!

Now we need Sakura to be independent! where are those guys that keeps talking about that

So we can impose our own tax laws there ofc

[Dextar]

Originally Posted by JohnBates

My two pecs: I am happy to pay taxes, as I really love the US and I am clear that I get a lot of value from living here. I believe Mindark feels the same way about Sweden. And others about their countries. (Not that I agree with how the money is spent, quite often... but that's another matter and why I vote.)

I think the taxman has to be careful not to kill the golden goose, though. I think it's a good idea to let the gosling grow up and figure out how to get as many golden eggs as possible, instead of one unsatisfying meal of baby goose.

At the end of the day, if someone is making a profit in a virtual world they should probably pay taxes on it just to be safe. However, (I agree with you!) does that mean people who spend money playing in these worlds can claim it as a business loss? I think there is still a lot the tax authorities need to think about.


JKB

Heheh that is a good one, "Tax Authorities" and "think" in the same sentence.

Heheheh

Government money grabbers don't think, they scheme!

But I agree I am also happy to pay taxes to live in the USA but I also agree with Arthur Godfrey on the subject:

"I'm proud to pay taxes in the United States; the only thing is, I could be just as proud for half the money." ~Arthur Godfrey

Dex

[aridash]

Originally Posted by Nor Alien

I put my money in through a friends avatar!!! In a zone where its tax free!!!

i think you've just highlighted exactly what the motivation for this move is, to prevent people using virtual worlds as a means to avoid paying VAT.

oh and you're breaking th EULA too...

[MarcinGo]

Originally Posted by mjukis

Just found this, while looking for more info about the tax thing.
http://realtid.se/ArticlePages/20080...tid052.dbp.asp

Translation below

Skatteverket (Swedish tax office) drops tax bomb in online games

Everyone who makes real money from online games like Second Life and World of Warcraft should pay tax. But it's not possible to implement.

- That part isn't done yet, says Skatteverket

Skatteverket makes a standpoint that income from gaming sites are subject to taxation.

In reality it's impossible both to pay and control the tax as the players are represented by anonymous avatars.

Jan Welter Timkrans, CEO of MindArk and the man behind Entropia Universe, doesn't think Skatteverkets standpoint is going to make any difference.

- Skatteverket states that gamers should send invoices to each other. It's unreasonable stuff they're talking about. The users don't know who they're interacting with.

Dag Hardyson, project manager for Skatteverkets review about internet trading and initiator for the standpoint, agrees. If your fellow player is from the US, no tax should be payed.

- You get a chat screen and type "Hi, where are you from?" If the answer is "I'm an American", should you then take a print screen and file in your accounting? That part isn't thought through yet.

But that doesn't stop Skatteverket from saying what the law says.

- Every person should have the right to do the right thing, says Dag Hardyson.

Skatteverket has recieved a lot of questions from people who want to know what the law says.

- Someone could open a consulting business in Second Life. We can't say we just don't care because it's too difficult to control, says Dag Hardyson.

Jan Welter thinks it's ridiculous for Skatteverket to blow the horn about rules that no one can follow. In the US, the congress has chosen not to do anyhting at all about these grey areas.

- They have chosen not to make as rash statements as Skatteverket.

Researcher Peter Zackariasson thinks that Mindark is missing an opportunity to get recognized by the rest of the world.

- One of Mindarks goals is to make Entropia an established arena, just like art galleries and fairs. To inculde institutions like private companies, but to exclude Skatteverket defeats the purpose.

He himself is happy about Skatteverket making a standpoint.

- Spontaneously I feel that it's damn good for them to make this standpoint. It's an acknowledgement for the virtual worlds as a part of reality. Of course they should pay tax.

Peter Zackariasson doesn't make a difference between what Skatteverket calls virtual worlds and other sites that offer financial services - like stock brokers.

- You put money in an account, it turns to profit. When you take it out you have to pay taxes on your profits. It's then comparable to any other profits regardless if you trade in virtual swords or real life stocks, says Peter Zackariasson.
During 2007, 700.000 players in Entropia produced 2,4 billion SEK (400million USD) in turnover.

But only a few Swedes make more than 30.000 SEK (5000 USD) which is the limit Skatteverket is referring to.

Mindark does not want to ay how many they are. Skatteverket thinks they are "more than 10".

Mindark already pays taxes on everything.

- But if our users follow the rules - I can't answer for, like Telia can't be responsible for business being made via their platform, says Jan Welter.

But if you loose money you should be abel to get some of it back aswell, that's how it works with stocks right? Dose anyone know?

[Lavawalker]

Originally Posted by StrongMinded

I want a tax deduction for all my losses!!!

Oh now I do wish I lived in Sweden,
Tax right offs would be great If this was introduced.

~ Sparkz

PS. Alas one day, transaction tracking will need to be implemented via the Auctioneer system and p2p trade system. Even though this will help greatly with any erroneous data and artificial inflation, I would suggest not rushing it

[aridash]

Originally Posted by MarcinGo

But if you loose money you should be abel to get some of it back aswell, that's how it works with stocks right? Dose anyone know?

no it doesnt work like that. Even Zackariasson appears to have missed this and is talking about income not VAT. VAT is imposed on turnover regardless of profit/loss. now, you do normally claim back VAT from the tax office if you are a business and not the end consumer, so theres scope for it being cash flow neutral over time. but you still have to pay it up front on your purchases and this presents a problem in real life to business as money is tied up with the tax office for several months. I dont know how you would differentiate bewteen consumers and businesses in EU either where we are normally both.