Resellers helped me!

[Kosh]

Originally Posted by kira-red

stupidity does not set the proper price for something, although it will cause "bumps" (usually benefiting the sellers). also, the "what the market will bear" sloan of the bloodsucking capitalist is rudimentary evil.

What is this so called "proper price" ?
This question cant be answered in an economic sense, it is more a philosophical or some might say even moral question.

If we look at it from an economical point of view then we are looking then we are looking for a market price determined by supply and demand, and a very high price is still in that category. It just means very few people will be willing to pay that price. You might classify them as being stupid but apparently it is what they are willing to pay for this sort of fun and you cant criticize them for it.
Obviously this small economic universe with limited supply is prone to individuals being able to effect the prices of certain items, but in the end resellers help the economy of EU much more than they hurt it.

Saying things like "capitalism is evil" don’t really add anything to the discussion, you can question the moral of people within the system, but the system itself is not evil. That is a purely rhetorical argument with no substance behind it.

You cant have an RCE game/Universe without people trying to profit, it wont work.

Just my twopecs ion the sunject.


Edit: Witte was faster than me raising the same points about stupidity. and as usual added a few other good points. +rep

[kira-red]

Originally Posted by Witte

And doesnt that mean that resellers infact have very little power over the price?

I've addressed this point so many times - it makes my head spin around. go look further up this thread. there are examples of what can be controlled and manipulated. it happens. you can pretend and deny it all you want, but it will not change the reality. if you cannot cite an example how why it is impossible for resellers to exercise and succeed with manipulation tactics then please stop adding noise to the conversation.

of course, you could be a reseller whos just spreading a little disinformation to confuse the unaware.

Originally Posted by Witte

The word manipulation is normally used in situations where tactics are used to decieve people. Since nobody is decieved, a better term would be simply market control.

bah. semantics. of course, they're deceived. information is intentionally obscured. anyway, check your dictionary - manipulation is control. manipulation is void of any morality. in fact, the subtile difference between manipulation and control is that manipulation traditionally involves a physical hand being involved.

Originally Posted by Witte

Who decides who is stipid and who is not? Isnt ANY markup you pay stupid? So isnt everyone in EU stupid then?

grow up and study some economics. nobody complains about a fair profit. the soft word is "fair". nobody is going to argue with a 30% markup. 200% they will. note that we're talking about a commodity, here, so don't go off on some tangent.

no, not every one in EU is stupid - but there are quite a few of them. these are the people the parasites feed upon. some of them will always be stupid, but some of them only need a little education to not fall into the trap.

Originally Posted by Witte

You simply cant blame the current markup of items on stupidity. Simply because we are not in the position to decide what is stupid and what is not.

stop generalizing and putting words into my mouth. I'm not talking about markups. I'm talking about manipulation and the subsequent artificial markup on some items.

in particular, the thread is about how this effect has helped any particular individual - which could be you. but, you seem to believe that this condition does not exist. so, as such, you should have nothing to say.

[kira-red]

Originally Posted by Kosh

What is this so called "proper price" ?
This question cant be answered in an economic sense, it is more a philosophical or some might say even moral question.

bah. yes, it can. economists do this all the time. the chain of resource to product is understood and fair returns can be calculated at every step along the way.

morality enters the picture when one or more parts of the chain gets greedy.

in most cases, the market controls itself because a good number of people aren't idiots. some markets are for idiots and they are appropriately fleeced. in certain essential markets, the production chain is regulated to insure fairness. your local power company cannot charge "whatever the market will bear" for electricity. even if it is in a competitive market with other retail suppliers, the wholesale price is regulated. this and anti-trust laws insure a fair market.

Originally Posted by Kosh

Obviously this small economic universe with limited supply is prone to individuals being able to effect the prices of certain items, but in the end resellers help the economy of EU much more than they hurt it.

and, thus, you admit manipulation exists. now, tell me how this is good and how it has benefited you.

Originally Posted by Kosh

Saying things like "capitalism is evil" don’t really add anything to the discussion, you can question the moral of people within the system, but the system itself is not evil.

I never said this. if anything, I said parasiticial resellers are evil.

Originally Posted by Kosh

That is a purely rhetorical argument with no substance behind it.

my arguments are backed up with examples and fact. they reference known definitions and theories. they are not rhetorical and not without substance. so, do not accuse me of this. you would do well to examine your own arguments.

Originally Posted by Kosh

Edit: Witte was faster than me raising the same points about stupidity. and as usual added a few other good points. +rep

no, he didn't. he just babbled on about nothing like he usually does. in actuallity, you disagree with him because you admit manipulation exists and he does not.

[Naifas Anaconda]

Originally Posted by Cyane Cyanee Ca

Ill try one...A reseller or reseller wannabe gave me a good laugh when he tried to manipulate prices for F vigi helmets a while ago, by bidding like 100 peds for the ones in aution, i threw in the ones i had fast i must admit :P, it all ended up with alot of ppl doing the same, price went havoc and poof we are where we are now, they are completely worthless and the market manipulator managed to do the complete opposite, probably ending up with less peds too

Bwahaha! good :P
I especially love when they put overpriced stuff in auction over and over without any bids and they keep loosing 100 ped because of the fees. Now my guess is a lot of people will for example sell their stores at insane prices to get peds to buy those mall shops. Who is going to pay 6k peds for an amethera store for example? I guess there's always a nut, unfortunately.

In the bottom line, what I've learn with resselers is there are people insanely rich or just crazy enough to put a significant part of their paychecks ingame, and there are people that are not ashamed of manipulating prices so only those that I mentioned can play the game to its fullest, and suck peds out of them as surely as a tick sucks blood from dogs.

[Kosh]

Originally Posted by kira-red

my arguments are backed up with examples and fact. they reference known definitions and theories. they are not rhetorical and not without substance. so, do not accuse me of this. you would do well to examine your own arguments.

I said this just about the blood sucking capitalist remark.

And to the rest of your points:
Yes. I there is market manipulation in EU, I said this in my prior post aswell, obviously they help people who are selling innocently the same item that they are manipulating. My point was that most forms of resseling helps the EU economy by reducing the variance of prices, and I belive the good outwieghs the bad.

Economists do alot of things that have no real connection with reality (me included). There is no such thing as a "proper price", you are talking about market price that is determined by economic models that vaguely describe the real world economic mechanics. Psychological elemnts are just as important in the economic process, and these are very hard to insert in to the models.
So what is a fair proce? it depends on who you ask.
In EU the market doesnt have pure competition, so the price of so called equilibrium is not an optimal one and can never be one.

Ofcourse the system is flawed, have you got better solutions?

+rep for the good debate

[Macce]

Originally Posted by steffel

resellers helped me...selling stuff overpriced to em

once i saw someone bidding +100 ped on all vigi F helmets in auction, while relisting them for +150 or so. glad i had 2 of them in storage and posted em for +100 buyout or even more, 10 minutes later they were sold while normal rate was +5 or so

Hey he helped me to lol and then a week later or so i bought them back at +2,5 when he paniced


Thx "reseller"

And remember you wont complain if u loot something with a great TT+ value ... be thankfull to the resellers then

And this discussion is still infected by the way ppl see(mix or wrongly use) the words trader and reseller as,diffrent or same meaning... if some say reseller some thinks trader and the otherway...

[Witte]

Originally Posted by kira-red

I've addressed this point so many times - it makes my head spin around. go look further up this thread. there are examples of what can be controlled and manipulated. it happens. you can pretend and deny it all you want, but it will not change the reality. if you cannot cite an example how why it is impossible for resellers to exercise and succeed with manipulation tactics then please stop adding noise to the conversation.

of course, you could be a reseller whos just spreading a little disinformation to confuse the unaware.

I am not denying it happens or whether it has influence, I am just claiming it is by far NOT the main factor in what decides the price of stuff. Resellers do not play a key role, they stand on the sideline, and jump in when they see oppertunity. As an effect of this, most items will keep a stable market price. If an item is undervalued, resellers will make that item their bussiness.

bah. semantics. of course, they're deceived. information is intentionally obscured. anyway, check your dictionary - manipulation is control. manipulation is void of any morality. in fact, the subtile difference between manipulation and control is that manipulation traditionally involves a physical hand being involved.

Maybe langual differences. In dutch manipulation means control using decieving tactics. And no, noone is decieved, as long as there is no shillbidding. All information you need to know can be seen.

grow up and study some economics. nobody complains about a fair profit. the soft word is "fair". nobody is going to argue with a 30% markup. 200% they will. note that we're talking about a commodity, here, so don't go off on some tangent.

Maybe you should grow up and learn how the realworld works. EU is kindergarten compared to the profits that are made in the realworld. Still everyone buys all the products and hardly complain.

We are talking about virtual items. How can selling those for whatever price be unfair. And its lame tactics to attack me personally. It also shows you are frustrated.

no, not every one in EU is stupid - but there are quite a few of them. these are the people the parasites feed upon. some of them will always be stupid, but some of them only need a little education to not fall into the trap.

Yes stupidity exist everwhere, so?

stop generalizing and putting words into my mouth. I'm not talking about markups. I'm talking about manipulation and the subsequent artificial markup on some items.

From this sentence i get the feeling you REALY totaly dont get it. EVERY single pec of the markup is artificial, and a product of what plays in our minds. And I will repeat it again, the only unfair way to influence that is through shillbidding or via interactive communication (with lying). Any other way is just plain correct and fair. Maybe this is the whole point of this discussion. Maybe you think it isnt. Well, then you wont like capitalism. You wont like the western way of living. (And i can very well understand you dont, I have issues with allot of aspects too)

in particular, the thread is about how this effect has helped any particular individual - which could be you. but, you seem to believe that this condition does not exist. so, as such, you should have nothing to say.

You are simply not specific enough what effect you are talking about. You talk about decieving people. Well ofcourse thats not good. But you claim people are decieved or manipulated as soon someone tries to resell somthing. And that just not true.

[TrinityIV]

You buy stuff from resellers in your normal daily life...Assuming most of you get off your chairs and go to Malls or even just a shop, They sell Brand named stuff not stuff they manufactured themself wich they make 160-200% profit on..., i'm sure you get my point by now, I don't resell at all if you can regularly depo there is no need..But still just my point of view..

[Xen]

Originally Posted by Witte

The word manipulation is normally used in situations where tactics are used to decieve people. Since nobody is decieved, a better term would be simply market control.

It's not even control... Again, no one is forced to pay any price. Nothing in this game is a necessity.

And Kira-red, "what the market will bear" is capitalism. You may not like capitalism, but it is a legitimate economic model, irl and in this game. If you want to argue that capitalism is bad, that is really another debate...

[Grounder]

Hello,

I have learnt that if you are patient enough you can usually get you desired price whether you are buying or selling.

I have also learnt that there is nothing you need - just stuff you want.

Grounder