about mentors, leaving newbies, and gifts

[Alice]

this will be a longer post, so beware a bit

i think after several "i gave my disciple stuff and he quit" threads i gonna write this
partially because i don't understand the tactic and partially to say how i see that gift giving thing

generally, i tend to say for ppl who ask me if i give gifts
(what i simply don't do; there were one or 2 gifts, but for sure not regularly)
"I don't give gifts and rather advice you. this way you miss a 5 ped gift but will save a couple of houndreds peds in the long run."

i think a phrase hits that "give a person a fish, feed him a day, teach him how to fish, feed him a lifetime"

same applies here "give a newbie an opalo, he shoots 2 days (thats the standard quitting time for around 80% of the newbies i think), tell him how to skill on the way, and he saves cash a whole playtime"
if he choses to quit, pity
but they have more from it if they learn how hard it actually can be to get the basic weapon

the "but sweating is soooooo boring" thing i can answer easily as well
"i have 2300 points in sweat gathering, just a matter of patience" (this is true btw)

considering the amount of disciples i had, especially back in the days when i was less picky, and had given everyone say 10 ped, i would be around 2k ped lost now, or more
i am not rich, and i won't spend that amount of cash for sure for nothing
i can find better ways to burn cash

not to mention the mentor hoppers who get a mentor, get gift, kick mentor, search next fool, transfer gifts to main ava

i don't buy sweat at 1.0 either, and one thing i don't understand with all of the "i buy sweat at 1.0 from disciples!", "i give them xx ped when they reach yy%", "i always buy them a whole hunting suit!"

heck, why?

first off, pure economics
standard mentor gift is the alpha ME (around 40% of the time i think, at least for me, i had around 40 graduaters, so i can say that), which is worth overall around 5 ped on market

full pixie already cost more than 10, opalo+200 ammo cost more already
so, even IF the disciple makes it, and you proudly click the claim reward button, you gonna make loss for around 98% (the other gifts i got arent worth to mention neither overall)

second, use for newbie
simply say i give them a full pixie right from start, opalo+1000 ammo, so roughly 25 ped
1000 ammo last a day, maybe 2
at this time, the newbie most likely is pretty broke (i doubt every newbie gets a 1.2k ped exa young), and will have 2 options
-tt or sell the pixie
-sweat

after the pixie is sold (it was given by the mentor, you are broke and come on, sweating??) you have won around 2 more days

after 3k ammo, the disciple could be around 200-400 pts in rifle, 10-20%

and now, he had to sweat
for hours
and hours

or rather quit, since you didn't lose anything
nor the time you invested in sweating, nor the armor, nor the ammo, nothing
and ofc the mentor doesnt get the pixie back, it is most likely ttd, and for the opalo the newbie wont bother

so the actual "use" for the newbie is basically 0
if he didnt have the dedication to get the cash to play somehow before, he won't get it by you giving him stuff
in most cases at least as most mentors will agree with me i guess

third, one of the main things

it is NOT the newbie which is so kind and offers you to please spend time explaining stuff and giving advices to him and if possible one or another gift, because he is so precious and the center of the universe


the -MENTOR- offers a service of sharing knowledge and spending time to help the newbie
if ANYONE has really the right to ask for gifts, it is the mentor (not that this happens with serious mentors)

that sounds harsh, but just to make a comparison
are the pupils paid at schools or the teachers?

and i doubt teachers would pay the pupils to come to school and listen to them
(depends on the weaponry of pupils nowadays unfortunately, but in EU it isn't PvP everywhere)

fourth
"but i want them to have a better start"

i partially wrote this at point 2 already, but a short version again

a gift of 25 ped, brings you nowhere basically
it takes roughly 2000 bombs, 3800 probes, and many many shots to graduate
the 25 ped won't make the difference there and work towards graduation

and basically, there are 2 options, the disciple is
a)a non depositer
b)a depositer

a) has some sub points
like
#1
"mentor hopper", thread here btw for description Professional disciples or mentor hoppers

#2
"want to get rich with sweating (best quote i heard so far about that: I got 34 sweat now, how can i withdraw it to my bank account?)"

#3
"it is a challenge to play without depositing, i will do it without!"

#1 and 2 are of course pretty useless disciple material, while#3

i have seen more determined sweaters and non depositers than depositers
they took it serious and with an amazing dedication
this is the type of non depositing disciples that is interesting

and just on those, a 25 ped gift might help
although considering their determination, most would be too proud to take it though

to b)

"i spend 10$ and i gonna get rich with hunting!"
correct, useless usually

"i have X$ per month i can deposit"
those are useful disciples, which especially need the advice on where they can spend cash best without losing to much

"i like to spend loads of cash and like gambling"
kinda fast graduaters


the whole b) fraction will most likely be quite unimpressed by a 25 ped gift, since they have often far more cash than this


to summarize that

i think it is very nice if ppl or mentors especially are kind enough to give gifts, its a nice sign of appreciation
as long they don't come back and whine about losing cash

the mentor is there to help the disciple with advice etc, and not to pay the whole skilling for him
help with getting the harder tps (it doesn't hurt if disciples explore a bit on their own, thats still one of the most fun things to do, especially at start)

but, as some might ask, "who the h*ll are you to write that?"
(maybe thinking, i want gifts ffs!)

considering that i had ~40 graduated and satisfied disciples without that whole "bribe them with gifts to stay" thing and with helping when it was needed and giving advices
while others with giving gifts don't manage even 4 graduaters and quit mentoring whining, i guess i am in the right positition to write it

thx for reading

[Snakecharmer]

Well said, the 3 disciples i took on till now (not mentoring much) only got advice from me, one left because he didn't want to deposit or sweat, one was playing 5 mmorpgs and had not enough time and one i suspect to have been a professional disciple cause he kicked me after 2 hours when he didn't get gifts.
If i had given every one of them stuff it wouldn't have helped them and surely not me.
It's good that people who think about mentoring get some advice from our uber mentor what it is really all about, helping newbies and not bribing them in the hope to get a Rockjacker ME

[Xerces]

Nice Post!! I totally agree. I very rarely give gifts. If I do it is a piece of Broken Pixie or something that has very little true value to someone that has shown dedication to the game and is obviously interested in playing for fun. (i.e. Bobbygolucky) I have filled friends lists with Disciples I have had and that have quit. Giving gifts to even half isnt worth it. +rep.

[itree]

I have given gifts to my serious disciples ...


... as a graduation present

A nice suit of clothes is appreciated by non-depositors since it doesn't detract from their achievement. As Alice says it is not about helping them monetarily, but rather showing appreciation of their efforts.

I have accepted over 100 disciples by now, most of which vanish after 2 days or so. When a10x amps dropped frequently, I used to give out broken ones to disciples that maxed their Opalo. Less than a PED of market value at the time (although quite a bit more these days ) and they had to spend some of their own PEDs to repair it in order to benefit. Sadly this is no longer an option

[Nihilist]

giving disciples freebies is a sure way to get kicked as a mentor or have them quit playing after they've used up their freebies.

sure you could get lucky with one or two of them.. but it would take giving out hundreds of freebies to find those chosen few.

best way to entice them is offer to give them the mentor gift at graduation no matter what it may be.

- ; )

[Cloud]

Good post Alice.

I am not rich so cant really offer gifts normally even if i want to.
Occassionally we loot something in a hunt and by then i know if person is 'friend' as all my Disciples are in my Soc.
If something they need drops it is theirs, even if they arent even denting the mob wiith their Opallo

Many are very embrrassed to take even a looted item, these people you can trust much i feel.

All i can offer in general is advice with the game and help if they get stuck etc and to be a friend.

Sadly over the last month i have so many Professional Disciples trying to scam me out of gift i am having a rest from new ones for awhile.
I get approached several times a day if i am in PA service center or near there.I must be on a list,lol, i did loan a Sollomate to a girl once who never returned it and i am quite confidant she is in Network and her colleagues all try their best to get me now.

Anyway i agree with Alice, can be a hard job and is best to teach them how to play for long run rather than buy a gift that will be wasted in a day. in many cases.
I think the best gain a Mentor gets is that sometimes they make very good friends

Cloud

[redwing26]

All I have to say to that is theres more mentors getting newbies locked in and leaving them be than their is mentors giving gifts, thats for sure.

I dont mean to sound selfish here but I have been stuck in a so called mentorship for 2 years by someone who has been on maybe 3 times in the first few days so the first thing I would be asking as a newbie seeking a mentor is "What can you provide me with that I cant find out by asking the genuine players of PE?"

I have found out more from nice people in PE who have no vested interest in getting rewards. I think they should ditch the system since its getting abused. Without the mentor system it would be easier for newbies to judge who is helping them because they are helpful and genuine and who is just a selfish person whos going to trod on everyone to get to the top.

Also from another perspective and also talking as someone who was provided nothing from mentorship , if you arent giving them a starting helping hand , say 1 jester or opola what exactly are you providing that they cant get else where? The fact is its going to cost them RL money like us all and they can get help from good socs and the forums. I help people because I want to , not kid them on that Im their friend , mentor them then go bye bye or make excuses why I shouldnt invest in them so Im getting a reward at zero cost, I think its a sham.

Sorry for being grumpy but I just found out as someone who isnt prepared to mine and thus will never graduate that Im stuck with a mentor that no longer plays for life. (I realise your an active forum member so I will take major flak but Im just being honest about it and theres many in game feel the same, well those that are left)

[Alice]

Originally Posted by redwing26

Also from another perspective and also talking as someone who was provided nothing from mentorship , if you arent giving them a starting helping hand , say 1 jester or opola what exactly are you providing that they cant get else where? [

when you add a disciple the disicple is automaticallyadded to your friendlist, and visa versa

what the disciple has from start is someone he can chat to instead of searching and finding a friendly player first

without going deeper into the topic of mentors who give ppl a low tt jester and some ammo so they skill to 20 pts in rifle and cant kick the mentor anymore and then disappear and wait for the gift (most likely play with their main ava then and take a look at the disciple harvester once and a while)

let me ask a question back:
how far will an opalo bring you?

say even full tt one
i answer that in the next part

as to what -I- am providing, that i can tell you

my standard program is a TP run from port atlantis to atlas haven
on that run i usually go through the controls, explain keymapping, the most common scams so the disciple doesnt fall for it
sometimes info about market data, sweating, hunting tips generally

the TP run tends to take 1 hour 20 min at least, per disciple that is

generally i point them as well to the guide, and when they have questions i usually tell them the eco answer

so in short, my standard program is this:

Instead of paying the disciple to play, or paying his gameplay in any case, i leave this to the disciple
i rather give information on how to play eco and smarter so this cost are far lower as if had been without advice (or me as mentor)

if that "grumpy post" was an attack towards me, you should also think about me actually spending my time on writing a guide, so i guess you are on the wrong person in this case

if it was a general "give the poor newbies stuff plz, it doesnt cost you much" thingie, i gonna answer this in the next part, also with some personal figures

Originally Posted by redwing26

The fact is its going to cost them RL money like us all and they can get help from good socs and the forums.

now imagine, you are a newbie, you found a mentor, he gives you an opalo (3.8 ped) and say 600 ammo (5 ped), total cost for newbie, 0, for mentor, ~10 ped, or 1$


now you use your 600 ammo up, which gonna take roughly 30 min
you go back to tt, tt your loot, darn!, just 4 ped loot :S
anyway, maybe next time better look

you continue this til the ped is gone

now the newbie, who maybe even plays EU to make cash, suddenly has 2 choices, well 3

a)deposit, but paying for a free game?
b)ask mentor for more stuff, i mean, he was giving on the first day stuff as well
c)sweating

a) tends to be rather rare
b) tends to happens more often
c) is the standard choice

now you go sweating, and after 2 days you have whole 1000 ammo!

continue hunt as above

now, ammo gone again, same 3 choices

again sweating?, 2 days sweating for hours for 1000 ped?, nah
depositing?, i mean, you constantly lost cash here!, rather neither?
and the mentor?, pft, screw him

and you quit

now to the promised numbers

i mentor since 2 years, i had til now ~270 disciples and ~40 graduaters

that means 230 quitters
(before you start with me being a newbie harvester, i never had more than 4 active disciples at once, and my soc helps me out there as well, so even if i am not around they have ppl who care about them)

from my statistics, which i can do in my position as well as from talks to other mentors

the standard newbie quits after 2 days (hence my 2 days sweating example from above), and makes it to roughly 1-10%, thats 20-200 pts in rifle (pretty much 1k ammo i guess)

out of all those 230 quitters, just 4! had the balls to come back and tell me that they quit, one of those even coming back and graduating!

if i had given everyone of those 230 disciples 10 ped, i had lost 2300 ped, or 230$, which is quite much rl money (at least for me)
with 0$ cost for 90% of them, since most were non depositers

now, 2 more questions:

and so you honestly agree that ppl should give the oh so poor newbies please an opalo so they can quit with you having spend unnecessary cash?

or let me ask this way
if you come and deposit, do you really care shit at all if someone gives you an opalo, or rather if he tells you how to invest and spend the cash wise so you lose less than other ppl?


and from my point of view, now from the grumpy mentor
if ~226 ppl dont even have the manners to come online and tell me that they quit after i spent HOURS to explain stuff to them, you really want me to throw them an opalo or whatever after?

an opalo doesnt make you stay if you dont have the dedication or will
100 ped wouldnt make you stay even, since those will be gone sooner or later

a mentor is there "to give a foothold", not to pay the disciples expense

or did the teachers in your school paid the pupils?
in mine they didn't

i mean honestly

someone is taking his time, often more than 30 min up to several ours of his time
to explains stuff to you, most likely he did the same often enough before

he could do so many other things, but he choses to spend the time helping a newbie
and you even want him to pay the newbie?

so the precious newbie listens to the poor person who doesnt have better things to do and is at least paid for the time he listens to the guy who helps him there?

are you kidding me?



PS

if ppl get a bad mentor, pity
but you should also consider that you can become a mentor with 100 pts in rifle already, which is done rather fast
simply get 100 pts rifle, run from newbie to newbie and add them, problem done
this isn't the fault of the good mentors or kind ppl who help generally

if those skills would be higher, say at least graduation level you would find far far less of these type of mentors who are just after the gift

you should consider to write a support case to MA to rise those levels, maybe they listen to yours more than to mine

PS and edit part2

if someone really thinks the mentor gift is worth it to spend 10 ped, they are mistaken

the standard gift is is an alpha ME, EP17 ME, brave ME
those are usually worth less than 10 ped

considering that 90% of the newbies quit, most likely more with a bad mentor, i honestly doubt thats a win situation for this type of mentor either

[Immortal]

BOth good posts Alice, and make 100% sense. And glad to hear them from someone who has done a *lot* of mentoring, rather than myself who just based the above observations and inferences on logic and psychology