Support Info: External PED Purchases

[Xandra]

Hi,

some ppl here seem to be completely wrong, according to my pending support case. I asked if it would be allowed to do rather exactely what some described here, doing trades without in game equivalent.

I found out a business partner far away from my place is in EU, too; we often have rather small bills (less then 500 EUR) for little services, and it had been a fine possibility to pay via PED - avoiding banking taxes that can be rather high, for small amounts. We'd both agree to do this fully correctly, with invoices and proper book keeping (treating it as cash income).

Originally Posted by Xandra

[...] Question: If I did things like this (receiving small amounts of PEDs from other avatars without countervalue), provided that such activities would be fully at my/ my business partners risk and MA would be in full discharge from any liability (due to EULA anyway), would this put any risk onto my avatar of getting banned? [...]

Reply:

Originally Posted by MA

[...] For a number of legal reasons, MindArk has adopted a general common policy not to support money transactions that do not involve any direct participation in the Entropia Universe.

Though the transactions as you described them involve relatively small sums of money, we can unfortunately not make any exceptions even after receiving your explanations.

As a result our common policy is to block the involved Entropia accounts, in reference to the EULA 17 h. § and 18 §. [...]

(I made important part bold)

This is a bummer. Guess the reason is MA doesn't want to violate national banking/ postal laws. But such policy, and the nebulous formulations in the EULA, will put a lot of participants into severe danger. I tried then to explain to MA:

Originally Posted by Xandra

[...] I can imagine a lot of fully legally (?) EU activities that would include such transactions, and that would not be distinguishable without knowing the full context, for instance:

- Transfer of PED/ materials from/ to CND, usually between Soc members, RL friends or relatives to avoid the flight costs, done using auction and overpriced buyouts (haven't done yet, but forums are full of descriptions);

- Payment of "in game" services like FAPping, "hired guns" for LG/ PvP zone mining etc., "herding" (Merry Mayhem was full of them) and many others (haven't done yet, but forums are full of descriptions);

- "Sponsoring" a newbie, be it selling (otherwise TT'd) armor parts for sweat, accepting crazy rates (100 bottles -> 1 PED?), or giving presents, maybe even "investing" into a disciple, helping her with PED to graduate (I admit to have done often, both selling most cheap and giving presents);

- Helping depositing when at a friends location there's no working method at this moment (there are times UKash doesn't work everywhere ...), or advancing some 100 PED in case of a delayed depositing progress to keep a friend going (I admit to have done, in the past);

I'm very sure there's a lot more possibilities for similar transactions that might classify as "reason for blocking". In a lot of cases there might be a "one-way-transfer" without suitable equivalent. [...]

I know very well the above described actions are not what I asked initially, but would not be distinguishable when checking using the database - in all cases it would be trades without suitable equivalent, thus suspicious, and, according to MA's policy, a reason to block the involved Entropia accounts.

So I'd advice you to be very careful! Remember, when you want to withdraw, MA will investigate for possible frauds, and you might experience a nasty surprise.

Since I feel this is important I plan to create a thread about this, when I have the answers to my second question. I feel a virtual environment utilizing a real cash economy should have clear rules about utilizing real cash, as well as the "game" currency, and statements like the one above, that might give MA a reason to block nearly any participants account at will is not acceptable, IMHO.

Have fun!

[Usurper]

I can confirm that buying Peds externaly is a bad idea.
I was at my bank today in some other business and
thought i would exchange some money into Peds, i mean
since i'm already at the bank why not get that sorted too.

To my surprise the teller didn't have a clue what
the heck "Peds" was.
I tried to explain it to him but he just
started to laugh at me.

I told him that my Daikiba needed food and
that my underware needed repairs.
At this time his face was all red.
He was laughing so loud that it could be heard
throuout the entire bank.

I assured him that if he couldn't give me Peds i
would have to sweat some animals.
He was now on the floor laughing, kicking and sceaming so hard that the other customers were beginning to look our way wondering what all
the commotion was all about.

I then said fine, then i guess i'll have to take my mindforce chip and teleport to the <ingame> bank
and let THEM give me some Peds instead!

At this point the teller had just enough strengt
left to squeeze out a "You do that!!" before he was helped asside by the manager into another room.

At that time i took my stuff and left the bank.
For good!!

So external Ped trade is not something i would
ever recomend.
There's some crazy ass people working in the banks nowerdays.

[aridash]

Originally Posted by Cloud

Ok , Airdash, before you start making adamant statements it would best to have practical knowledge on the topic.
I already stated charged rate is primarily based on turnover, and it is generally international rates required from Visa and Mastercard, banks charge what they negotiate with the Merchant.
I am a merchant and i do have some first hand knowledge.
For you to suggest a rate of 2-4.5% means one of two things.You are not a merchant and have no real knowledge, or you are a merchant and have no idea what the range is and had no idea you could negotiate.
It would be very surprising if you are an actual merchant and didnt know what the rate ranges were so.....

If MA was paying higher than the 1% range they should sack their finance administrator, but they wouldnt be.

Seems ironic you tell me not to comment without facts,lol.

Cloud

sorry fella, but i have been shopping around for a merchant account and do know a little about what im talking about. I expressly qualified that charges may change between countries, i did not say you were wrong in regard to your experience in Australia did i? i merely pointed out that your experience doesnt necessarily follow over to Sweden. i do not know what the charges are in Sweden either. i do know that i have been quoted charges in the range given, and 3.5% seems normal for non standard transactions. I myself cant get less than 4% due to the nature of the business (and im in no position to negoitate so hadnt explored that to be fair). you may find that MA were limited in options due to the international and online nature of their business. Unless you are a merchant involved in online games in Sweden, your knowledge is as limited as the rest of ours.

[Lighterthief]

... so when can we expect anshe's account to be "terminated"?

[Aziphirael]

Originally Posted by Tussi

Strange.
Seems like you get ripped off (compared to my business account).

I suggest you try another bank.

Tussi

Its about normal unfortuantely. I've looked around and my business account is probably one of the best on the market as it does give me interest which is a bit rare for current accounts (although took some negotiation to do). Business Accounts in the UK usually have a monthly fee as well (those that don't will just increase the transaction fees), plus charges for any activity I do like withdrawing money or receiving money.

Originally Posted by Cloud

Hi Aziphirael,
3.5% isnt the norm but it is possible to pay that, just, but turnover would have to be tiny, and the initial rate very poorly negotiated.
MA has the ability to negotiate a better % rate and would have.It is likely they have Never paid a fee in the 3% range, I havent, even when my business first started and i had nothing going through initially, my first offer was under 3%.
If i had MA's turnover i would be looking at 1% give or take half a point.
A service terminal fee is not relevant to MA.


Regards
Cloud

I'm making an assumption that you are in Australia :-) Where I think the government has actually passed legislation to clamped down on Credit Card fees, something still rumbling through in the EU. I know for me here in the UK, the Office of Fair Trading is looking into the fees being charged on credit cards, in particular the interchange fees, although thats just part of the overall cost to transact as the payment gateway will also take their share.

Certainly it can certainly be negotiated if you have the turnover but for the small business in the UK, you don't have much options for payment processing so you do get stuck with some pretty bad fees. As I was a start-up they refused to negotiated until the sales started to come in.

I've seen fees it as high as 4.5% if you don't have the turnover. Having said that debit Cards in the UK tend to be charged at a fixed rate which can make them cheaper to accept then Credit Cards.

[Cloud]

Originally Posted by aridash

sorry fella, but i have been shopping around for a merchant account and do know a little about what im talking about. I expressly qualified that charges may change between countries, i did not say you were wrong in regard to your experience in Australia did i? i merely pointed out that your experience doesnt necessarily follow over to Sweden. i do not know what the charges are in Sweden either. i do know that i have been quoted charges in the range given, and 3.5% seems normal for non standard transactions. I myself cant get less than 4% due to the nature of the business (and im in no position to negoitate so hadnt explored that to be fair). you may find that MA were limited in options due to the international and online nature of their business. Unless you are a merchant involved in online games in Sweden, your knowledge is as limited as the rest of ours.

Hi Ari, not frequenting EF to act as your business manager so i'll leave you with your 4%.

Regards
Cloud

[Tseng]

Originally Posted by Lighterthief

... so when can we expect anshe's account to be "terminated"?

When the first guy uses a stolen creditcard, to buy PEDs and deposit it on his Anshe Bank Entropia account

[Cloud]

Hi Aziphirael, yes as a start up it can be difficult.
I was told a rate initially when i first applied and they told me it wasn't negotiatiable till i had turnover history but they changed their mind when i informed them that i probably wouldnt do much worse at other banks so i may as well go and try them.
They then asked me what rate i thought was fair and we negotiated from there

I hope your business does well, all the best

Cloud

[Dion Red Strike]

Cloud... while you may think you are correct, you haven't explored the possibility that things are a bit different in Sweden...

Mindark probably went out looking for someone who would take the risk initially... the company came back and said, it'll be a 3.5% cost of all CC transaction, MA said, ok, np, we'll just pass it along to the customers.

It's no big conspiracy theory on how MA makes money.... they've said it time and time again... Not to mention, even if they did take a portion of that 'fee', they've quite clearly stated it (any 'income') would go straight to the loot pool...

Big deal out of nothing, imho...

now, back on topic...

Good that MA is trying to warn people about CC fraud... I had a 'friend' (IRL) that got his account locked because he was using his mother's card without her permission... I had loaned him a few items prior to it being locked... none the less, I consider those items a loss....

So, even if you KNOW someone quite well, you never know if they're legit.... it's a good thing I never bought any ped off of the above mentioned friend... who knows, I could have gotten my account locked...

Red

[Cloud]

Originally Posted by Dion Red Strike

Cloud... while you may think you are correct, you haven't explored the possibility that things are a bit different in Sweden...

Mindark probably went out looking for someone who would take the risk initially... the company came back and said, it'll be a 3.5% cost of all CC transaction, MA said, ok, np, we'll just pass it along to the customers.

It's no big conspiracy theory on how MA makes money.... they've said it time and time again... Not to mention, even if they did take a portion of that 'fee', they've quite clearly stated it (any 'income') would go straight to the loot pool...

Big deal out of nothing, imho...

now, back on topic...

Good that MA is trying to warn people about CC fraud... I had a 'friend' (IRL) that got his account locked because he was using his mother's card without her permission... I had loaned him a few items prior to it being locked... none the less, I consider those items a loss....

So, even if you KNOW someone quite well, you never know if they're legit.... it's a good thing I never bought any ped off of the above mentioned friend... who knows, I could have gotten my account locked...

Red

Hi Dion, thanks for letting me know what i have and haven't explored

Nice speculation on your behalf also, thanks for providing that so we are all clear now

Never suggested anything to do with a conspiracy, just discussed what i thought the range of rate they would most likely be paying.
We discuss things like this from time to time ,lol.

Was never a big deal, just another discussion, but if it bores you no need to get involved, but since you have i feel much clearer that you have told me how things are based on your speculation

Cloud