Support Info: External PED Purchases

[Tseng]

Originally Posted by WoenK

On a side note....
I only use Paysafe, cost me zero, nada, niente, nothing, nüscht in fees.
Buying PEDs from anyone else then official sources should raise suspicion, there can't be any credit farmers in here, so it can only be a scam.

Wouldn't say that it can only be scam. Of course the risk is very high that a credit card fraud was involved, but it could also mean that someone just wants to take out a certain amount of money out of the game without waiting 2-3 months until he gets it with the official way (via MindArk).

[Xandra]

Hi,

to the ppl discussing if there's a deposit fee or not: This is way off topic here and distracts from a very serious problem. Please stop it, make a thread about, or discuss in PM - don't spoil this thread, plz again!

This is about a statement from MA condemning external PED purchases. Add to it what I have posted here :

Originally Posted by MA Support

[...] For a number of legal reasons, MindArk has adopted a general common policy not to support money transactions that do not involve any direct participation in the Entropia Universe.

Though the transactions as you described them involve relatively small sums of money, we can unfortunately not make any exceptions even after receiving your explanations.

As a result our common policy is to block the involved Entropia accounts, in reference to the EULA 17 h. § and 18 §. [...]

"Transactions that do not involve any direct participation in the Entropia Universe" - Well, MA doesn't sit next to you when you're playing, and I doubt they really read all of the chat logs.

• So when a friend comes to your place, mentioning she's too broken to deposit, but could you please give her 100 PED for the 10 greenbacks she has as reserve?
  
• So when a disciple has graduated, you got a great ME item and would like to give him this old Neme gloves (M) rotting in your storage for ages as congratulation & gift?
  
• So when you're ambushed by this [way too big mob], fight for your life, get help from another ava, and get a huge global with your 51% of damage (or vice versa) - sharing the loot as honorable citizen of Calypso then?
  
• So when I lend my 5B set to my most trustworthy Soc friend, in full awareness that it's at my own risk?

All these would be actions that, from a pure database point of view, would be very hard to tell apart from external PED purchases (done in slightly intelligent way). I'm sure there are a lot of other possible examples, all having in common a transaction of something without proper countervalue. If they "involve any direct participation in the Entropia Universe" will be only in the eyes of the judge at MA!

Now MA says it's common policy is to block the involved Entropia accounts. I know very well that most of these problems could be solved without big problems, but I also know there's no formal appeal when banning.

This puts a lot of participants into actual danger of having their accounts blocked by MA, should they find suitable. I cannot accept having such nebulous rules in an RCE, where a lot pf participants are judging their (partially very huge) deposits as "investments"!

And I, for me, am not ready to put in any substantial cash into a system that doesn't give me clear rules, doesn't give me any security at all for my "investments" (beyond "initial investment" - may lawyers haggle what this means ...) and that, even when claiming to be "the most secure virtual platform" doesn't actually provide more security then my Soc friend from the other side of the world, that burrows my 5B's. Both my deposit money, and my 5B's, are given away in full consciousness that it's done at my own risk, and that it might be lost easily. My friend might sell the 5B's and withdraw, MA might block my account for lending out my 5B's.

A real RCE that would work cannot be handled in such a manner, IMHO. If MA can't allow transactions without proper countervalue because they would maybe break some banking laws - well, then they should get a partner bank that is allowed to do this! Such transactions are daily routine in EU - everyone does it, and everyone offers MA a reason to block it's account doing so - this isn't acceptable IMHO.

My support case about this is still open. I'd like to hear opinions about what I wrote, I might refresh with a link to here. Am I really this wrong?

Have fun!

[Traf Rellik]

Yes, Xandra,

Policy and enforcement are rarely directly related though. The policy would never comes out and directly say that there can be exceptions (that would invite defenses against enforcement!).

However, we all know of some "laws" that are not there because of the infraction so much as the enforcement options they provide. As an example, a broken tail light may or may not result in you getting pulled over, but if you look like your driving drunk, that tail light becomes the deciding factor in how you are treated. Jaywalking is another example. Both laws would never come out and say "the enforcement of this law is optional and only used to help catch people in the act of other violations...", but that pretty much sums up how they are ENFORCED.

The policy? Do not make external trades -- period.

The reason? For your own protection against fraud (as well as MA's protection against getting pulled into unnecessary legal issues).

The enforcement? If you (or the person you dealt with) come to MA seeking some form of restitution, count on the policy being enforced. Otherwise, it's pretty much like jaywalking.

There is another thread that this applies to... mob trains. But some people just couldn't get it on that thread so I'm sure the same will happen here. It's as if they live in a black and white world where policy is 100% enforced and no latitude is given for the use of judgement on a case by case basis.

BTW: There actually IS a reason MA should consider enforcing this on each and every case, but like you said, they can't FIND them in each and every case -- unless someone clues them in or it becomes an established and recognized pattern.

[Tussi]

Plain and simple: MA is spreading FUD, same like with the 'we can terminate your account for no reason' EULA paragraph.

But it seems that the fallout of this is a decrease of what is left of the trust which their userbase puts in them.

Good job.

Traf, nice sig.

Tussi

[aia]

It would be nice with some official MA comment; until then I at least think and hope that MA will have a sober judgement. And, for instance, if there is something that looks fishy, that they will give the avatar a chance to explain what happened. I *think* MA can tell apart someone who sell PEDs gained from a stolen CC, from someone who pays, for instance, fapping service, unless there is some very strange transaction involved, like paying for IRL services using PEDs ingame (not recommended, since it may look like IRL money laundry...).

[Traf Rellik]

Let me give a concrete example of why "something looking fishy" isn't a direct factor here.

A person comes up to you and asks for 20 PED to do something fishy in game (upgrade your pixie armor, for instance). You are suspicious of course, but you give them the PED and they run off. You submit a scam report to MA and they will reply along the lines of "gee, we're sorry, but all transactions are final. If you submit a police report, we will cooperate with the investigation, blah blah blah".

The above scenario demonstrates MA's commitment to both parties involved. While you would LIKE to think MA would do something to help you, they are really protecting the SYSTEM in place. It's the ONLY realistic position they CAN take, from both a policy and enforcement perspective.

The reason is not quite as simple, but it's along the lines of them not being in a position to determine guilt in a criminal matter. At face value it appears to be as legitimate as any other "give me something for nothing" transaction (of which there are many done in game ALL THE TIME). At the end of many team hunts, on any high markup transaction, when friends pay back things they borrowed, etc... There is no way for a third person to know that the deal was not lopsided for a legitimate reason. And since you cannot rely on what either of the two participants say alone (as a legal matter of established truth), you HAVE to assume the deal was legitimate unless adjudicated by local law enforcement.

And, if it DOES go to law enforcement, MA *will comply* with the investigation. Which means they are going to get caught up in expenses and effort they OBVIOUSLY want to avoid. Hence, it's only natural for them to discourage ANY activity that is LIKELY to result in this happening.

Policy is never *directly* about right or wrong, it's usually about keeping liabilities in check. In this case, the policy is designed to limit the number of times MA has to waste time on investigations. It's nothing more than a simple case of common sense.

[Tussi]

Originally Posted by Traf Rellik

It's nothing more than a simple case of common sense.

As they state it it feels more like stoning a [edit]sex crime[/edit] victim to death because she was impure.

Tussi

[-Herb-]

..just in case it's relevant, i'm selling 40$ worth of PED via PayPal at 98PED / 10$. I think that this thread clarified that i'm not gonna get sodomized by MA legal team..

[Tamn]

Originally Posted by NightwolfAA2k5

Looks like Marco's wielding the Banhammer

- Nightwolf

*screams and rolls under desk*


on a side note, this stuff makes me very nervous...this banning without appeal stuff....oh dear oh dear...

[timmmers]

I'm a little puzzled how they would police this?

Ava 1 gives Ava2 500 ped...what else would MA know about that transaction?
Was it a gift, a bet, an event, what exactly was the money for? It could have been payment for some external transfer done out of game...but it's far from obvious from just the transaction is it?

"here m8, happy birthday from the society we all chipped in so you could buy that item you always wanted "
"here m8, happy birthday from MA ...you're banned for being given peds"

Also. what of Ava 1 gives Ava 2 500 bombs, or 500 ped of ammo? Ava 2 TTs that and it's peds isn't it? Many things are as good as peds with fixed values...and how can that possibly be traced and proved to be payment for anything external?

I don't see MA chasing scams very vigorously as things stand, it's all (fairly usually) down to us being careful...and the GC offer seems likely to mean they can stand back more if it increases security.

To police this type of thing would require some eyes on so many trades...can't see that really can you?

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