Clarification about Entropia banking operations

[safara]

Originally Posted by demoniac

It seems to me that it really doesn't matter who was doing it first or whether MA 'stole' the idea. They decided to take a business that players had been developing and experimenting with and re-invent it as a Bank.

When they realized that their licenses had not really added much of value they chose a rather dubious way to correct the problem. They contradicted the position they had adopted just a few days earlier and threatened the possible competition with a muddled statement that further clarifications just made worse. There was no change to the EULA, just a threat that adds confusion and would be hard to enforce in any fair or consistent manner.

It sets a bad precedent and does nothing for MA's credibility or the vision of EU as a place of opportunity for all.

And, just a threat on one of the many fan based forums.

Am I correct in thinking that there has been no official statement yet about this "clarification" either on the EU website or something like the email newsletter they used to send out?

So, none of these "clarifications" are yet official.

Other than the old chestnut in the EULA "We can lock you whenever we want without reason and take all your stuff away"

[dbelinfante]

Originally Posted by Bubba

Well, another clever one.
I quite agree with you that most real mentors would never do that.
Short of taking me to find Orthos west mound, from Billy's, and then leaving me out near the west end to find my way back on my own, (which actually turned in my favor. I met some rigteous f

Hey clueless:

[dbelinfante]

Originally Posted by demoniac

It seems to me that it really doesn't matter who was doing it first or whether MA 'stole' the idea. They decided to take a business that players had been developing and experimenting with and re-invent it as a Bank.

When they realized that their licenses had not really added much of value they chose a rather dubious way to correct the problem. They contradicted the position they had adopted just a few days earlier and threatened the possible competition with a muddled statement that further clarifications just made worse. There was no change to the EULA, just a threat that adds confusion and would be hard to enforce in any fair or consistent manner.

It sets a bad precedent and does nothing for MA's credibility or the vision of EU as a place of opportunity for all.

Repeated and reposted for clarity and comprehension. THIS is the core of the problem, particularly (but by no means exclusively) the bold part.

Thx for summing it up so succinctly Demoniac.

[Raffaele Meiers]

Originally Posted by demoniac

It seems to me that it really doesn't matter who was doing it first or whether MA 'stole' the idea. They decided to take a business that players had been developing and experimenting with and re-invent it as a Bank.

When they realized that their licenses had not really added much of value they chose a rather dubious way to correct the problem. They contradicted the position they had adopted just a few days earlier and threatened the possible competition with a muddled statement that further clarifications just made worse. There was no change to the EULA, just a threat that adds confusion and would be hard to enforce in any fair or consistent manner.

It sets a bad precedent and does nothing for MA's credibility or the vision of EU as a place of opportunity for all.

The biggest problem I have is also not the "stealing" of a Idea but it is that MindArk themselve went away from their holy rule of all trades are final.

Why you may ask:

-Licences where in Auction when loan services existed.
-MindArk never told that when the Banks would be introduced they would close pawn shops and similar services.
-5 licences where sold under the current condition with pawn shops in EU


So why does MindArk do this? MindArk should start to realise that Inverstors not paying them in the long run, Investors are here to invest money and to earn money and withdraw it in the end to pay for theire living etc.

So in my view every investor in EU is one who wants also a share from the cake the depositing participants fill with peds and therefore is the biggest enemy for the development of the virtual universe. The more money flows out of EU the lesser MindArk has to pay developers, new Hardware or give out more loot.

What positive effect we have of a person who invests 100k US$ into EU to after that withdraw 10k US$ every month? Honestly I do not see any good out of this neither for MindArk nor for the participants in EU.

[Aziphirael]

Originally Posted by Raffaele Meiers

So why does MindArk do this? MindArk should start to realise that Inverstors not paying them in the long run, Investors are here to invest money and to earn money and withdraw it in the end to pay for theire living etc.

So in my view every investor in EU is one who wants also a share from the cake the depositing participants fill with peds and therefore is the biggest enemy for the development of the virtual universe. The more money flows out of EU the lesser MindArk has to pay developers, new Hardware or give out more loot.

What positive effect we have of a person who invests 100k US$ into EU to after that withdraw 10k US$ every month? Honestly I do not see any good out of this neither for MindArk nor for the participants in EU.

I think its a bit simplistic to view investor as a constant drain on MA and its resources. And I think thats because MA have in some sense created a system that means they will always profit from investors.

MA does make money from investors, if you look at the setups with regards to the Bank licenses for example there are taxes and other fees associated with running them.

When you look at MA's plan, then it seems new investments will always consist of some element of ongoing taxation/fees to maintain your investment. Those taxation and fees are also linked to performance (eg selling more items in your shops means more fees to MA), so there is motivation to promote and get customers.

In some sense they take a viewpoint rather similar to the UK, where we aren't too fussed who owns what company or the fact that trillions of dollars of cash flows through these shores from one country to another. The reality is that some of that money sticks and stays in the UK and that is what is driving our economy.

[Dextar]

I am a stone cold newbie (to this game) However, I have been playing MMORPGs since NWN came out.

No not that one, the NWN that came out in 1991 on AOL and cost 6 bucks an hour to play. (Remember that when you all are thinking how expensive onlinegames are to play. My first month of NWN cost me $474.00 and that didn't include the long distance charges )

In RL our family corporation owns several businesses. I have been in business in one form or another since I was 17. At one time our family corporation looked into opening a Non-par bank. OK, I will be the first to admit I have no real idea what the difference is between a Non-par and a par bank if that is even the proper terms, all I know is our accountants and lawyers told us that was the way for us to go. But I do have a bit of insight on what kind of deal it is to open a Real World Bank.

The process for us to open this bank was something out of a bureaucrat's wet dream. If memory serves, the preliminary paperwork to see if we were even eligible to own a bank was going to cost us something like 35k American just to prepare and file; this was in early 1980's dollars. After that it was going to get expensive according to our lawyers and accountants. Thus we found out after spending many more dollars we could still be turned down, so we gave up on that deal.

Also, to get into banking the US government was going to give you what can best be termed a thorough proctology examination of each and every person who was to have ownership of the bank.

So, with all that in mind consider MA is on the frontier of Virtual World Banking. IF they don't have some form of serious written agreement (A.K.A. Banking License) they may run afoul of Real World legal systems before they even get out of the gate.

Remember as far as the "LAW" and Virtual Worlds go there is no real settled rules or regulations. The technology is moving far to fast for the legal system to keep up with. Add to that the INTERNET blurs boundaries and legal jurisdictions to the point that many legal scholars are saying we will have to develop a whole new system of law just to address the INTERNET and monetary transactions.

BTW I've seen it mentioned on these forums that MA (or any other gaming company for that matter) only has to go by the laws in their own country. Well, OK officially yeah. However, there are many things All these online gaming companies have to worry about. Foremost is their "monetary gateway" (A.K.A. how they get their money from their customers.) It's true that a game company in Germany does not have to abide by US or Japanese laws. But it is also true that these governments can say to Visa/Mastercard our Federal Banking system does not recognize transactions with BIGBUCKSGAMES and therefore will not honor them.

And if you think that won't happen do some checking into the INTERNET gambling issue here in the US. To gamble on a British Gambling site a person in the US has to open a bank account in the caymans or some other off shore banking system just to play safely enough to transfer any winnings into America. How many gamers do you think would go to that trouble?

Bottom line MA is going to be walking a thin line trying to keep the RL governments from crashing the party while trying to keep their customers happy. I do not envy them their dilemma one little bit. And I wish them much luck, cuz they are gonna need it!

Dex

[Pe-nerd]

Originally Posted by Dextar

Also, to get into banking the US government was going to give you what can best be termed a thorough proctology examination

Bottom line MA is going to be walking a thin line trying to keep the RL governments from crashing the party while trying to keep their customers happy. I do not envy them their dilemma one little bit. And I wish them much luck, cuz they are gonna need it!

I agree MA is walking on a thin line but that does not stop them implementing new economical upgrades to the game. Well that unstoppable urge to make the game grow is respectable and also made this game unique. You have to give them credit for that. We are feeding each other lots a negativity on this board which not always leads to an objective picture for the future.

Your post is a good one (+rep for that) it makes some very good points. I agree with you that by not investigating the owners of the Bank licence they cannot be sure what their intentions might be. The chance they are here for a scamm seems not realistic at all but MA cannot ensure a high quality customer service to the players using the banks as a fact. They went from the point that if anyone wants to pay so much money for a bank licence he want´s to make a success out of it, and i think that is insurance enough. We only have to watch and see how it develops because otherwise the only thing we do is just pure speculation.

I also agree that LAW represented by a government or players will be dropping on the doorsteps of MA HQ for sure. All professions have been changed to a slot machine type of virtual interaction which has no real difference to gambling at all except for the skills added during each session inside the game. The addictive factor behind this will make sure investigations towards the game will be dune by governments.
There are already several investigations dune by University Students, who also are players to this game, then it just takes some time when their results will reach someone inside the legal system and whim will follow on that initial research.

Especially when we see a tendency all over the world that the Economical liberalism is seeing the end of his days. Governments will be taking on a more educational/restricting role in the future so we just have to wait for Law reaching inside this virtual world.

Originally Posted by Aziphirael

I think its a bit simplistic to view investor as a constant drain on MA and its resources. And I think thats because MA have in some sense created a system that means they will always profit from investors.

IRL i would agree with you but not the same mechanics apply to this world. A closed economy wich feeds on constant depositting is not the same as real life economy. More people profitting will ensure a greater need for more depositters otherwise a huge deflation will arise. Withdrawels are handled by MA they feed on Deposits to keep both in balance MA will keep nerfing the lootpool to ensure just that.

[Bubba]

Originally Posted by dbelinfante

Hey clueless:

It's you that is clueless. We covered that yesterday. Try to keep up.

Originally Posted by safara

And, just a threat on one of the many fan based forums.

And I correct in thinking that there has been no official statement yet about this "clarification" either on the EU website or something like the email newsletter they used to send out?

So, none of these "clarifications" are yet official.

Other the old chestnut in the EULA "We can lock you whenever we want without reason and take all your stuff away"

Correct. there has been no change to anything, yet, and Ma has said all the need to say. All the yammering by a small, but noisy MINORITY (dbelinfante, please note, we get back to your comment from yesterday) will not change a thing.

Originally Posted by Raffaele Meiers

...
So why does MindArk do this? MindArk should start to realise that Inverstors not paying them in the long run, Investors are here to invest money and to earn money and withdraw it in the end to pay for theire living etc.
...

A bit off topic, but "investors" are looking for a long-term relationship that will increase their capital. What you describe are "speculators", who are looking for quick, short-term gains . MA is looking for Investors, and must show them that the long-term will pay off.

Back to the basic point. There has been no change in policy. You all are barking at shadows.

[Nihilist]

You people.. I like this campaign of MA's "Protect the noobs but only the ones that just deposited a large some of cash!"

on a good note:

http://www.entropiaforum.com/forums/...3&postcount=34

we are all free to set up "share" based businesses of our own.

[Bubba]

Allow me to apologize.

I reacted to some rather nasty pm remarks in the public forum, and detracted from the point of the discussion.

Again, my apologies.