Clarification about Entropia banking operations

[JackFree]

Originally Posted by demoniac

It's not a game according to MA and if they want to market it as a virtual universe where you can run your own business and profit then I don't think it is too outrageous to ask for some consistent rules or rights to govern that.

You would not expect a government IRL to tell you that you can run business X one day and then the next day tell you that if you carry on you may be shot

This virtual universe is not real life and MA is not a publically elected goverment.

So yes. I can expect MA to tell you can run business x one day and the next tell you that if you carry on you may be banned.

Those are the conditions we agree to when we play.

Originally Posted by EULA

"By accepting this Agreement and becoming a Participant you agree that MindArk may, at any time, update, revise or change this Agreement. If MindArk makes material changes or revisions to this Agreement, MindArk will provide notice to you, via the e-mail address you provided upon registration. Your continued participation in the Entropia Universe after notification of changes means that you have accepted the changes. If you do not want to accept the changes proposed by MindArk or any of the terms in this Agreement, your only remedy is to cancel your Account and cease using the Entropia Universe."

Cheers

[Congadawg]

Originally Posted by ZAN ZAN

Now what the hell has this to do with the subject matter ?

Refering to previous posts that I made on this topic. What did your post have to do with the subject?

[demoniac]

Originally Posted by JackFree

This virtual universe is not real life and MA is not a publically elected goverment.

So yes. I can expect MA to tell you can run business x one day and the next tell you that if you carry on you may be banned.

Those are the conditions we agree to when we play.

Governments IRL can often do what they want too, up until a point.
If their citizens find it unacceptable they will vote them out, leave (if they can) or start a revolution...

[JackFree]

Originally Posted by demoniac

Governments IRL can often do what they want too, up until a point.
If their citizens find it unacceptable they will vote them out, leave (if they can) or start a revolution...

Sure, but EU is not real life, so none of those real life scenarios apply.

Cheers

[Bear]

Since this all went to the "legal" and government discussion, i jump in.

But i can only speak for germany and in some cases for Europe, i have no idea how it works in USA f.ex.

1. EULA isn´t valid if you don´t have the possibility to read it before you "buy" a product. Since you read the EULA of EU before you start the first time, it should be valid. BUT, it has to be in german language to be valid. So EULA isn´t valid in Germany.

2. Even if the EULA would be valid, it is impure (?right word?) to make a statement in a contract (which the EULA is) which gives you a one sided advantage like "we may change this contract anytime as we like". Statements like that are not valid in Germany.

3. It is VERY questionable if MA can just quit your account. See point 2.
IF MA do so, they will have to adduce some facts as evidence. Scamming would be one. But there is no way MA can just call scamming what they like.
Look again point 1 & 2

Those 3 basic rules in german law renders the MA EULA invalid in its most important aspects. There are other very questionable stamtents there too, but i don´t care at the moment. Honestly, i don´t care mauch about the EULA at all. IF MA should go real mad at me, they will learn that there are rules above their EULA

Buissines in EU is allready VERY limited. MA should really think over the hole situation, not only the "Banks".
Which buissines are the banks going to finance? Reselling? lol That is allready working TOO good. There are no banks needed. I wait to see the first Headline like: First RL bankruptcy due to VR "Loan-Sharks" in EU.
ah wait, Banks are supposed to loan money against items. So you can resell other items? Pyramid anybody? I don´t get the point at all.
Get some money from the Bank so you can hunt/mine more to "profit"? LOL
Get some money from the Bank so you can buy a LA? Why don´t the Bank buy them if they are profitable?

EU needs way more buissines possibilities for everybody. There will never be a strong economy without small buissines. Or are we all (99% of us) supposed to pay: 5% tax for deposit, 5% for LA taxes, 40%-60% "taxes" on mining/hunting/crafting, taxes for shops and auction. 10% taxes to chip out/in, 5% taxes to withdraw..... And that all from RL money without any buissines (real buissines) oportunities in EU?

[theProphet]

that was very harsh said bear, but i fear there is more truth in your post than MA would like to have...

who the hell had the idea for banks ingame when there are so many more things to take care about first?!?!? lucky me that i'm only customer and not MA shareholder or employee, not sure if they sleep very well these days

anyways, everyone should decide for himself if he wants to let the ship sink, or if he is willing to contribute in a constructive and positive manner - that posts on mmorpg.com that were refered to, seem rather to be the first...

something else, did anyone of you ever think about that MA maybe made the EULA this way to protect themself of stupid lawsuits like they are possible in the US, also to protect everyone else who takes part? don't blame me, just my personal opinion...

[demoniac]

Originally Posted by JackFree

Sure, but EU is not real life, so none of those real life scenarios apply.

Cheers

I think the last 2 could apply

[McCormick]

In another online game, a virtual-bank-manager ran away with all the money... and he still plays...

...you can do democratic elections now to vote for a representative...

[KP708]

There are some interesting ideas in this thread about what our rights are as users of MA's software.

However, it does occur to me that the EULA is not technically a contract in the normal sense of the word. In pretty much all jurisdictions, a contract requires an exchange of items to be binding. These items may be physical, or financial, but there has to be an exchange.

Now we look at EU. What is actually happening here? MA own the rights to some software, running on their servers, and also other software distributed for free to client machines. It is theirs totally, we the users have no ownership of this at all.

MA have granted us, the users, the right to use their software to access their servers, as and when MA choose. This is not in return for anything, this is a gift pure and simple. Therefore there is no contract.

So if you make no deposit, you have given nothing, you are merely making use of the free licence to use MA's software.

In this case you have no legal rights. None at all.

Now if you deposit, there is a contract - you give money, MA give peds, which is a virtual item allowing you to make use of certain features of their software. These are provided in accordance with the EULA which says stuff like MA aren't liable if EU doesn't work. But the point here is, you deposit money, you get peds. Contract complete. Unless you don't get peds when you deposit, I don't see that you can really complain.

So chances are, legally, the user has no rights to speak of either way. Sure a well paid lawyer might be able to argue that by spending your peds you are entitled to certain things in return, and maybe you could get a refund of some of your deposits - assuming you could afford a better lawyer than MA which is unlikely, since their entire business would be riding on any outcome.

In other words, frankly, from a legal viewpoint, we are fortunate to be permitted to use MA's software. Nobody makes us do so, but if we choose to do so, we can have no expectations since we are owed nothing.

From a commercial viewpoint of course everything is different - MA need customers to use the software or they make no money. This is like any business - sell what customers want or go out of business.

But let's not get confused here - it is each player's choice to play or not. If we choose to play, we do so, because we have decided that the benefit we expect to get is worth anything we choose to put in. We are not entitled to entertainment from EU, nor profit nor anything else, except peds when we deposit.

Unless some countries have laws I don't know about that says if you offer a service you are obliged to make that service match the demands of anyone who uses it, but somehow I doubt anywhere is that much of a nanny state.

Edit: I personally enjoy playing, and will do so as long as that remains true. I'm having fun in EU at the moment - I hope everyone else is too

[Borealis]

Originally Posted by Bear

Those 3 basic rules in german law renders the MA EULA invalid in its most important aspects. There are other very questionable stamtents there too, but i don´t care at the moment. Honestly, i don´t care mauch about the EULA at all. IF MA should go real mad at me, they will learn that there are rules above their EULA

This only matters if MA want to take you to court in Germany. The most likely situation is the opposite. That you would like to press charges against them. You need to do this in Sweden under swedish law.