Clarification about Entropia banking operations

[KP708]

Originally Posted by Bear

KP708,
the sweat market is a FREE market. If nobody sweats anymore, price will rise, too much sweat, price is low. Simple.

Banks are now a regulated market. Not only that the license owners have a secure 24h system, MA bans all other Bank-like-systems. ->No free market.

This all has nothing to do with sweat threads...

Ah ok - you think MA have no influence over the amount of sweat which drops, who gets it, where and when. So there's no chance they replaced overt regulation (sweat cap) with silent regulation (manipulating drop volumes). Fair enough.

But back on topic....

Originally Posted by J.C Cougar

What will happen if i for example have a couple of friends ingame who wants to buy something nice but doesnt have all the cash required. And i offer to lend them the money they need to purchase the item/items and ask them for something in return as a security deposit just to protect myself from beeing scammed?
Am i then acting as an Illegal banker or is it just if they give me some % on the money i lend to them? BTW i usually give some % to people who help me out ingame and also irl. Its not to ripp off anyone,its just common decency.[/font]

I wondered the same thing...

Marco said:

Originally Posted by Marco|MindArk

To clarify the clarification - MA will target avatars who state they offer loan services (or equal) as business (and not having a virtual banking license). Private loans, the borrowing or lending of items/money between friends, is not the target.

But of course what are friends. I would say anyone who I have exchanged a PM with on EF is a friend, at least to an extent. Enough that I would be prepared to do a pvp loan with. And if I posted on EF that, purely for the benefit of friends of mine, I'll be in twin this evening to do any exchanges of items for peds, then I would surely not be advertising a business, just providing information for my friends.

Problem is in the end, there is no objective delineation between what constitutes Private loans, the borrowing or lending of items/money between friends, and what constitutes avatars who state they offer loan services (or equal) as business .

So I guess in the end if you do a pvp loan and are caught, and MA decide in their ultimate authority that they want to ban you, they can. There is no higher court to appeal to. But they can ban anyone any time anyway.

Maybe MA could provide a clear objective unambiguous definition of what they would regard as offering loan services as a business. Then guys who want to make PVP loans legitimately without a banking licence could ensure they stay within the rules. At the moment, it's too grey an area.

[Bear]

MA regulates the droping rate of sweat. True. The question is if MA regulates the price. No, not really.. not that i noticed.

Everybody is free to sell sweat for 5PED per bottle or 0.00001 PEC. And everybody is free to buy or not.

It is not a scamm to sell cheaper than MA "wants you to".

But MA bans "Banks" which would be cheaper than "their" "Banks.

Do you notice anything? First is the task a "world creator" like MA has to do.
Second is bad ass regulation and protectism in its worst way.

[Defiler]

Originally Posted by Bear

Since this all went to the "legal" and government discussion, i jump in.

But i can only speak for germany and in some cases for Europe, i have no idea how it works in USA f.ex.

1. EULA isn´t valid if you don´t have the possibility to read it before you "buy" a product. Since you read the EULA of EU before you start the first time, it should be valid. BUT, it has to be in german language to be valid. So EULA isn´t valid in Germany.

2. Even if the EULA would be valid, it is impure (?right word?) to make a statement in a contract (which the EULA is) which gives you a one sided advantage like "we may change this contract anytime as we like". Statements like that are not valid in Germany.

3. It is VERY questionable if MA can just quit your account. See point 2.
IF MA do so, they will have to adduce some facts as evidence. Scamming would be one. But there is no way MA can just call scamming what they like.
Look again point 1 & 2

1. yes (valid all over the eu)

2. yes (valid over the eu)

3. hmm You may be blocked out your account but only after warnings.. Your account may not be erased.

Now look for the other 8 problems areas. (then I'll pay you instead a lawyer)

P.S. do not make too much advertising. I like EULA's with big holes in them. Kinda easy when serious discussions start...

[KP708]

Originally Posted by Bear

MA regulates the droping rate of sweat. True. The question is if MA regulates the price. No, not really.. not that i noticed.

Everybody is free to sell sweat for 5PED per bottle or 0.00001 PEC. And everybody is free to buy or not.

It is not a scamm to sell cheaper than MA "wants you to".

But MA bans "Banks" which would be cheaper than "their" "Banks.

Do you notice anything? First is the task a "world creator" like MA has to do.
Second is bad ass regulation and protectism in its worst way.

OK so then it comes down to the fact that MA impose rules and regulations. Some we agree with, some we don't know about, some we don't like.

But we still have to live with them if we want to play. This is really what I meant by the comparison with sweat price threads.

We don't have to like the rules MA make for the world. They cannot stop us voicing opinions, positive or negative.

But unless they decide to bow to community feeling, because they don't want to alienate existing users, then the rules won't change and we have to live with them.

No doubt there will be analysts at MA working out how much they will lose from alienating players due to the pvp-loan ban, as compared to how much they will lose from having to repay the paw...er banking licence auction income because they have promised a particular business environment to the licence holders, and then are unable to deliver it if they remove the pvp-loan-ban.

Of course a smart move on their part would be to please everyone.

So here's a question. Given that they have done the deal on the banks, and unless they want to repay those fees, they need to ban competition, hence the pvp-loan-ban, and given that as a result of that, MA have just gained a bit of a windfall, what would people like to see MA do to sweeten the bitter pill of regulation?

Is there a move MA could make which would make people happier, but does not involve lifting the ban on pvp-loans? Thereby utilising the thousands of dollars they have obtained from the licence auction.

I mean MA will surely know there is some ill-feeling. It's easy for us to show that, and say 'I think this decision sucks you need to change it'. It's much harder to come up with something constructive, but there are alot of good brains amongst the EU player community.

So let's show we are a mature community, and start making some suggestions that they could realistically adopt to make up for this apparent mess. Maybe ultimately something really good could come out of this.
Thinking caps on guys

[BlackMagicWoman]

Who likes my siggie?
(Eze: you're the man!)

[TrinketSoul]

Originally Posted by LarsMac

...
If you don't like the way MA plays their game, then go find another game to play. If enough people don't like it, and go elsewhere, then they won't have a game anymore, and they will know that they need to do it differently next time.
....

How do you know we haven't, and are just following the forum rules 15 and 18, and how do you know you aren't missing out on something else? This is the common attitude and this is why MA thinks they can do whatever they want... And why many participants continue to let thier principles be twisted. Withiout violating any forum rules You may be significantly wrong.

Originally Posted by theProphet

...
anyways, everyone should decide for himself if he wants to let the ship sink, or if he is willing to contribute in a constructive and positive manner - that posts on mmorpg.com that were refered to, seem rather to be the first...
...

I think that if this would have happend quite some time ago I could have ignored it and moved along (maybe even would have created an account w/ mmorpg to flame that post). And quite some time ago I did ignore it and move along. However I cannot lend my support, money etc to a company that clearly at this point I cannot stand behind especially when there are viable alternatives out there. And I won't let MA skew my convictions about what is morally responsible for a company, and the difference between right and wrong. There are still too many in EU that don't mind that a bit...

[Sionkiewicz]

Originally Posted by LarsMac

If you come to my restaurant, I will sell you a meal. I will be more than happy for you to come to me for a meal,but you will abide by my rules while you are dining. No smoking in my restaurant. You may NOT eat the fish in my aquarium. You may not go in the kitchen and fix your own meal. You may NOT fondle the waitstaff. You may NOT throw your food at the bartender. Etc., etc.

I would have no problem with these rules in your restaurant. I would have an issue if they were a little more invasive such as " You will not share your meal with others at your table. You will sit in the seat assign to you. You will not speak about subjects forbidden here. You cannot borrow someone else's fork. You must receive your fork from the prescribed vendor and pay the maintenance fees which are applied. Any and all violations will be punishable by firing squad." (BTW, this are fictional and should NEVER be used )

Oh, and by the way, you don't normally find out about all of these rules until you are at the table and ordered your meal.

I agree that "If you don't like it, get out." is the best motto to follow here but some here have invested more than money into this world and are not as willing to just drop it. They would like to work with MA to redraft some of these rules in their virtual world to not only support the companies but the citizens. I personally don't think it will matter much but they have the right to try and have their voices heard.

[BlackMagicWoman]

Originally Posted by KP708

So let's show we are a mature community, and start making some suggestions that they could realistically adopt to make up for this apparent mess. Maybe ultimately something really good could come out of this.
Thinking caps on guys

We already made suggestions: MA MUST change this "clarification" of clarification to a 180 degrees
MA MUST let us have the freedom to create enterprises and businesses without having to pay a fortune for some virtual pawn shops.
MA MUST start to work on the Gamers of EU Rights.

[Ezekiel]

Originally Posted by Marco|MindArk

I fully understand that frustration and emotion is running high right now. The policy update was the result after having discussions and feedback with the support department, who got dozens of requests from participants who wanted to start loan services. A lot of the people behind the requests are ones with a shady background in the Entropia. We saw a rapid rise in fraudulent enterprise forming, which would hurt the little guy. We decided to act pre-emptevly and state that those who publicly offers loan services hereby us to be viewed upon as scammers, because that is the only real way to act. My horror scene would have been seen 50 loan sharks in Port Atlantis scamming newcomers from their first PEDs, killing all fun and all hope for them. The biggest sad thing in this is that those who manage a trusted venture gets tossed in with the rest, but at this point we cannot differentiated in a way that MA can guarantee.

Originally Posted by Marco|MindArk

To clarify the clarification - MA will target avatars who state they offer loan services (or equal) as business (and not having a virtual banking license). Private loans, the borrowing or lending of items/money between friends, is not the target.

Newcomers come to Entropia, they have read about the banking license and assume baning is safe in Entropia. All banking. When they get fooled by a scammer bank avatar they lose all trust in Entropia and in MindArk. It creates support cases, grief and anger. Many newcomers doesn't really understand the concept of virtual items having real value until after something bad happens. This time we wanted to act before the situation gets out of hand, and to protect the community and add safety to the virtual environment. Many of the newcomers today don't have the knowledge or insight of the culture and mechanics in Entropia, thus meaning MA must add means to protect them.

As to scammers in general, MA is locking accounts due to scams and frauds. Maybe we should have a weekly posting of "Accounts locked since last week" somewhere to have transparancy, maybe we should add the number of warnings an avatar has when people interact with the avatar. Obviously there are things that can be improved.

we can almost see the sincerity
hey m8s this guy is the Director of Community Relations in MA, MA is not joking i think they play glof and drink champagne, they r a professionals

continue like this and in few months your Horror scene will become the nember
of the newcomers is decreasing, killing all the hope and the fun for the MA staff

MA harming to the reputation of his own creation

[BlackMagicWoman]

Originally Posted by Sionkiewicz

I agree that "If you don't like it, get out." is the best motto to follow here but some here have invested more than money into this world and are not as willing to just drop it. They would like to work with MA to redraft some of these rules in their virtual world to not only support the companies but the citizens. I personally don't think it will matter much but they have the right to try and have their voices heard.

Glad you finally see the light, Slick
+rep