Mindforce - An analysis.

[Jimmy B]

I made a long post about this somewhere if anyone feels up to digging it out.

Basically TP, Heal, Focus is OK as it is.

Attack is pretty flawed. The problem is because (i) the chips are 'naturally' way too efficient compared with normal weapons and (ii) the way SIB has been applied to them, plus the markup for ME, makes them way too inefficient for regular use.

With (i) I mean if you took away SIB properties, and ignore markup (which is traded between players so irrelevant from MA's perspective) then they are way too efficient. Markup on ME doesn't change that, when you hunt with them, either MA are paying you or the loot pool is paying you (and you in turn may be paying the sweaters).

Hence the SIB. The SIB is applied in such a way as you don't max them out until you reach lvl 100. This means for nearly everyone hit rate isn't great, but more importantly damage range is woeful (starts at 25%-50% at lvl 0). That largely sorts out the problem from MA/loot pool side, except for the few ubers who have good very high damage skills from hunting with other weapons. But basically for everyone else, makes them really really bad economy to use, especially when you add the markup.

The best solution I thought of was to introduce new L chips, with more achievable SIB skilling ranges. The obvious way to do it is to have most of the decay on the chips and only a little ME per use, so the markup on ME doesn't kill it. But that'd mean the markup on the chip would have to be really low, which is perhaps unlikely. The other way is to introduce MF ammo in loot which is only used for the new SIB chips and would have a low markup. That way most the cost could be in the ammo, so the chips could have markup similar to L guns, and the old heal/tp/focus chips would use the normal ME so sweaters would still get PED for their sweat (tp/heal/focus accounts for most ME used today anyway).

The only problem with what I suggest above is that if MF became a lot easier to skill, then the current prices of skills would plummet, and there's be some rather annoyed people out there who had bought them previously. But if MF is ever sorted out and becomes more popular I don't see much way of avoiding that.

[Elwarth]

Firestorm chips good for pk at rig.

[CyberPunk]

depending on how you look at it, Mindforce can be extremely eco or have poor eco.

The medium chip for exampe, without SIB, 36 max damage, low skill level you will have 9.x-36 damage range, and average of ~22.5 damage

Your implant will decay 1 pec/use

Your chip will decay 1.1 pec/use

Your ME, if you gather sweat yourself and mine nexus, can range from free to infinite depending on your luck mining. (if you hof your nexus return vs mining cost could be so large that it's virtually free, or if you can't find any nexus you could spend a fortune and come up dry)
we'll just figure you break even mining and nexus/ME cost you 100%
36 / (1 + 1.1 + 5 * 1.00) = 5.07 damage/pec

If you gather sweat yourself and buy nexus, can cost as low as 130-140% depending on what you pay for nexus.
36 / (1 + 1.1 + 5 * 1.35) = 4.06 damage/pec

Buying ME @ 197%
36 / (1 + 1.1 + 5 * 1.97) = 3.01 damage/pec

I believe that nerveblast is intended more for the first 2 scenarios rather than the later. Mobs give on average 1 pull of sweat per 20 hitpoints, averaging 12 sweat/pull and 22.5 damage/hit for 5 ME you should have no problem having enough sweat to continue making ME

Another point could be made that you can do an average of 22.5 damage/use (9.x-36) from skill level 0 with a quick reload compared to plasma. As a noob in the profession that puts you quit powerful.

[Jimmy B]

Yes Cyberpunk, the only thing with the Medium NB is the ME markup (for us) and the natural economy (for MA/loot pool, its arguably too high compared with other weps). But its just about alright overall maybe.

The problem with MF attack is that there's no progression from that. All the higher ones have SIB that make them pretty much unusable for nearly everyone.

[Alice]

gotta love MF threads, here my post, and i skill bio

Originally Posted by WoenK

hmmm...why lower the nexus price ?
Why not make the chips a bit more efficient and stronger ?

the chip itself is/quite quite acceptable
but the additional cost are killing it

if you use a say t1 fap, and you would heal say 3 times each time with 8 heal, the decay you will have in the end is like 1.8 pec
so, 24 heal=1.8 pec (in the end, you will likely deal more heal when you heal 3 times)

when you heal once with a minor heal chip, you have 3 pec chip decay (that alone would be enough, why later) 2 pec for the ME (chip uses 1 ME at 200%) and ~1 pec impact decay; max heal 24
so, 24 heal = 6 pec
that is twice as expensive

even if you would bring ME down to 1 pec per use, you would still have 5 pec for 24 heal
you would be at 160% cost compared to the fap in this case, and not 200%, but still


pretty much the same thing you can say about the NB chips, i guess FS as well

the only ones you can argue with normal eco even, are the ones without SIB
that is NB 1-3, or lesser to medium

above that, you get even more problems

example, and that will be about wiki "econess" in this case
the figures there are correct btw, when you leave ME cost out, implant and use a maxed chip (you can check the "use implant decay" now as well though, but you gotta do that!)
unfortunately, this is not the case

we start with med, that chip has no SIB
so to make it easier, leave the HA out of the context, and just use max dam to calc eco
it does 36 dam, has ME use of 5 (200%->10 pec per shot), decay of 1.1 and implant decay of ~1

the eco at ME at tt would be 5.07
that isn't bad, even since the chip isn't maxed

but for higher chips that doesn't apply

in the calc above i used maxed dam, but this doesn't apply for any of the higher NB or FS chips, unless you are maxed with them, and that needs high
because they have SIB, means you won't have maxed dam until the SIB ends, which, unfortunately, doesn't happen before lvl 100 or so ^^

Originally Posted by Nighthawk

But however, even if the chips are really strong I don't think that too many people will use it because of it being too uneco?

MA can't make the chips use too little ME because then some chips will be too eco and they will lose money.

people use them
else the price of ME wouldn't be 200%

just that this ME price isn't necessarily jacked up by NB users or bio healers, but more likely by TP chip users

i haven't checked the figures lately, but there were around 300 000 sold each day
some might be trading, means buying and selling for higher, but that would, say still leave 200 000
i doubt thats all spend with healing and NBing

Originally Posted by WoenK

The combat chips could be very usable even at lower levels if they had a bit better punch. Biggest drawback is, that some chips have no SiB.

for NB and FS the biggest drawback is that they have

since they won't be maxed for a long long time
and after a test a socmate did they actually seem to skills slower although they have SIB(moderate slower compared to medium)
so slower skills (i trust her test there), not maxed damage and a not that impressive HA either

Originally Posted by Xandra

Hi,
Right
...
MA has begun it, has faced difficulties, and has forgotten it. Like so many other things. Ahhhh - the Mindforce!

i happen to own a powerful heal chip i looted (and i bought a Bd implant in the past for +75 due to that)
i can tell you, it isn't worth it, believe it or not
58 heal for 5 ME use (so say 10 pec) with 7.1 pec decay and ~1 for implant
you come to 3.2 heal per pec
4.42 at ME at tt

the t1 has 7.7 min heal/0.909 or so, brings you to 8.47 heal per pec

for a bigger fap, the heal per sec of a hedoc SK 50 L is more or less close to it, max heal 69 and decay 6.3 pec more or less

it is still more eco (based on max heal) as the heal8 at 200% ^.-


for some skill figures, i got around 2 times less skills for the same amount of peds used (also ME calculated at 200%) when i used the powerful compared to minor

i really doubt that if you want to skill MF, you will need a higher chip soon, nor the implant, if you plan to stay at least minimal eco with an acceptable skill gain per ped
at least for healing


----------

ofc i came mainly from the healing section, since I skill that myself

but, ofc, i would have a suggestion as well

considering prices of currently lower faps, read t5-t20 (t20 not that low, i know #D)

it would be interesting to see a MF healing chip L, which doesn't use ME
this chip, would be like a fap basically, just having decay (ofc a 1 pec lower decay compared to faps eco, since you need ~1 pec decay on the implant)

now, what to do with all the ME?
the ME would be used as resource to craft this kind of chip, maybe compared with some animal oil or so

that way you would share the cost between MF user and crafter

that would have, imo, several positive aspects

first of all, some alternatives for crafters in the healing toolsection, since ME is fairly easy to get, the stuff you need for the lower vivos not

for hunters, especially lower level ones, would have finally an alternative to the way way overpriced (compared to heal per sec they do especially) lower vivo's
which more or less builds a gap between t1 and sk20 L (which has better prices)
the ones above sk20 have a useful heal per sec at least

and, one of the funnier points, it could actually share the newbie payment
at the moment, the sweating ppl are solely paid by MF users

in case of MF hunters or MF healers, that figure isn't representative, i doubt that many are out there

in case of TP chip users however, that is used by many hunters and miners alike
so they have a share more or less in paying newbies (more or less)
crafters not yet

so the idea was basically about leaving the chips as they are now, but implement a new crafted L chip for healing (and hunting would be interesting with those terms too, if the basic eco is around the same as weapons WITH the implant decay in consideration, and no ME usage)

[Nighthawk]

Originally Posted by Elwarth

Or you could increase sweat droprate further...

When it looted less of it and sold at 1,2 pec per unit and now loots more at 5 pec per unit, same result for the sweater.

Solution: Multiply the current sweat ammounts by 5x, force it down to 1 pec per unit. Fixed.

Ehm... But sweat now sells at 0,5PEC per unit?

[Nighthawk]

Originally Posted by Alice

people use them
else the price of ME wouldn't be 200%

yeah, but how many people use each type of chip? the attack chips are not used too much




how about a taming-chip then?
if you could tame mobs that you wouldnt be able to with a whip?
would people use it more?
yes, i guess?

[Alice]

Originally Posted by Nighthawk

yeah, but how many people use each type of chip? the attack chips are not used too much




how about a taming-chip then?
if you could tame mobs that you wouldnt be able to with a whip?
would people use it more?
yes, i guess?

one problem ME has, is that if one would be used too much, you increase expense all others

scenario

you get a heal chip with 160 heal max, 1 pec decay, 1 ME per use

price if ME would increase i guess

now, what about the poor ppl who use TP chips?
a TP chip is basically like an own car RL, you pay for the car/chip (it seems some chips in MF region get towards a car price as well) and also for fuel/ME
now, i guess most ppl are not that happy about increasing fuel prices
i doubt ME in that case would be better

so i think that new chips, or more eco chips alone wouldn't really help

as soon one of the ME aspects (or a new one) gets something incredibly good, the others will suffer considerably i think

unless the ME is more or less taken away from the direct use
hence my crafting resource idea

or maybe new chips would just use sweat and no nexus

the sweat price would rise ofc, but that won't be the main trouble there
at 1.3 it used to be bought as well, and nexus was adjusted (don't start with the poor miners now, who have basically just markup stuff compared to hunters except lyst, oil, melchi or so atm)

considering the amount of sweat gathered per day, and i think that is quite a bit
a taming chip for example based on just sweat and no ME/nexus, could be cheaper that way without having too much influence on the ME using chips
and even increase sweat price, which is good for newbies

[Waheed]

Originally Posted by CyberPunk

depending on how you look at it, Mindforce can be extremely eco or have poor eco.

The medium chip for exampe, without SIB, 36 max damage, low skill level you will have 9.x-36 damage range, and average of ~22.5 damage

Your implant will decay 1 pec/use

Your chip will decay 1.1 pec/use

Your ME, if you gather sweat yourself and mine nexus, can range from free to infinite depending on your luck mining. (if you hof your nexus return vs mining cost could be so large that it's virtually free, or if you can't find any nexus you could spend a fortune and come up dry)
we'll just figure you break even mining and nexus/ME cost you 100%
36 / (1 + 1.1 + 5 * 1.00) = 5.07 damage/pec

If you gather sweat yourself and buy nexus, can cost as low as 130-140% depending on what you pay for nexus.
36 / (1 + 1.1 + 5 * 1.35) = 4.06 damage/pec

Buying ME @ 197%
36 / (1 + 1.1 + 5 * 1.97) = 3.01 damage/pec

I believe that nerveblast is intended more for the first 2 scenarios rather than the later. Mobs give on average 1 pull of sweat per 20 hitpoints, averaging 12 sweat/pull and 22.5 damage/hit for 5 ME you should have no problem having enough sweat to continue making ME

Another point could be made that you can do an average of 22.5 damage/use (9.x-36) from skill level 0 with a quick reload compared to plasma. As a noob in the profession that puts you quit powerful.

This way of thinking is so wrong when it comes to eco - It would be like someone looting a 40ped TT shadow harness and TTed it saying:
"I didn't lose 20k ped TTing it, I gained 40ped"


If you have 200ped TT ME, then it has a value of 400ped - No matter if you mined the nexus yourself and sweated the mobs yourself - It can be sold for 400ped with the current market or you can use it yourself and have burned 400ped...

So MF chip aint eco in any way.

Else I might as well go craft Tk320 on condition since I mined the Zanderium myself and by that is only paying TT on input - Get the point ?

[slupor]

I think when MA decides to flood the market with Nexus until it goes for 105%, many enmat miners will go broke and stop mining. It's bread and butter for many enmat miners and keeps me personally alive most of the time when a run goes bad.

And even if the droprate increases so I make more revenue for the same profit, I still dont like it. Nexus is a pain to extract and takes way too much time already. So if more Nexus drops, either the extractor efficiency or the amount of ME per nexus unit needs to be adjusted accordingly to prevent Enmat miners to run away and go out for ores that extract in seconds instead.

MA will think twice before touching the system in such a fundamental way. I hope...

/Slupor