Mindforce - An analysis.

[Alice]

Originally Posted by Waheed

This way of thinking is so wrong when it comes to eco - It would be like someone looting a 40ped TT shadow harness and TTed it saying:
"I didn't lose 20k ped TTing it, I gained 40ped"


If you have 200ped TT ME, then it has a value of 400ped

thats correct

you always gotta count with opportunity cost

i mean, you could have sold the sweat and nexus (or the ME) and paid the fap decay with it kinda, at least partially

[Freelancer_Main]

lowering nexus markup would help but it wont happen
why cant you just wait till chinese players will be able to play hm? prices of sweat will drop then.. thus lowering the prices of ME...and thats your only option my friend

[Nighthawk]

Originally Posted by Alice

or maybe new chips would just use sweat and no nexus

that wouldnt really happen

Originally Posted by slupor

many enmat miners will go broke and stop mining. It's bread and butter for many enmat miners and keeps me personally alive most of the time when a run goes bad.

how about if they add other markup enmatters instead?

Originally Posted by Freelancer_Main

why cant you just wait till chinese players will be able to play hm? prices of sweat will drop then.. thus lowering the prices of ME...and thats your only option my friend

yeah but this thread is about fixing MF without changing sweat prices and i actually dont think that the sweat price will take a sudden drop because of that...

[Jimmy B]

Originally Posted by Alice

one problem ME has, is that if one would be used too much, you increase expense all others

scenario

you get a heal chip with 160 heal max, 1 pec decay, 1 ME per use

price if ME would increase i guess

Yeah, that's an issue, that's why I had the MF Ammo idea for new SIB Attack chips.

I don't really see any big downside with it, the only problem I can think of is more people skilling MF would possibly dramatically lower the skill chip prices which may upset some people.

Originally Posted by Waheed

This way of thinking is so wrong when it comes to eco - It would be like someone looting a 40ped TT shadow harness and TTed it saying:
"I didn't lose 20k ped TTing it, I gained 40ped"

Agreed, but there's two sides to it. MA's view of the economy, and the avatar's view of the economy.

From an MA point of view, there was no change. He had 40 PED on his Shadow piece, now its on his PED Card. The 20k PED is in the hands of the avatar who he bought the Shadow from.

Meanwhile from the avatar's point of view it was a disaster - he lost 20k PED of market value.

It works the same with the chips.

Originally Posted by Waheed

So MF chip aint eco in any way.

Not really true.

Take the Potent Nerve Blast Chip. Assuming wiki data to be correct, it has an economy of 5.63 dmg/pec. Before SIB was applied to it, that would have been ridiculously economical - its a good margin more economical than imk2.

From MA's viewpoint, the markup doesn't change that, the markup is exchanged between players. The dmg/pec turns into loot, and either MA or the loot pool would be paying whoever was hunting at 5.63 dmg/pec (who in turn is paying the sweaters).

Meanwhile, from the hunter's point of view, the ME markup still makes it not great economy. (the argument you can get your own ME is invalid, that doesn't change the economy since you can sell the ME instead; the fact sweating is very eco, doesn't make the chip eco)

But then the SIB was applied, presumably to solve the 5.63 dmg/pec issue. That brings the economy from MA's perspective down to a bit more like other weapons for all people but very serious ubers. But with that on top of ME prices it means a hunter gets about half the dmg/pec with it than you would with any normal weapon.

[Sarah Hawkwood]

For me the main problem with MF is that higher level tools have prices to high in relation to their possibilities. At least on my current MF levels. What could really give MF a boost, is increased droprate of tools to make higher level ones more afforable. I would prefer if MA didn't mess with droprate of nexus. Nexus is the only noob resource easy to find and with markup and this saves many beginer miners. And I would like to remind that nexus prices are much lower now than they used to be like 2 years ago. From something like 170% to 130% is enough, I think.
I think that we should consider MF being just a toy, something nice and designed to do some tricks, not being very usefull on low levels (except that TP, focus and healing are ok as they are now on low levels). It's just cool addition to other things and I think as cool addition it's pretty ok.

[Uvas]

Originally Posted by Elwarth

Or you could increase sweat droprate further...

When it looted less of it and sold at 1,2 pec per unit and now loots more at 5 pec per unit, same result for the sweater.

Solution: Multiply the current sweat ammounts by 5x, force it down to 1 pec per unit. Fixed.

Sweat is about .53 per bottle.

Or 2 for a pec.

Drivng down the price 5x would get you 10 bottles per pec, or one ped per thousand. Sheesh, NOBODY would sweat for those prices...

[Nighthawk]

Originally Posted by Uvas

Sheesh, NOBODY would sweat for those prices...

And that would drive the price up as the market would demand more lol

[Nighthawk]

(damn this thread triggered some long posts... ya guys had pre-written these ones? lol )

[Xandra]

Hi,

Originally Posted by Alice

i happen to own a powerful heal chip i looted (and i bought a Bd implant in the past for +75 due to that)

Lucky you! I'm after Bd for years now, and the best chip I ever looted was "Moderate Nerve Blast Chip".
I made the mistake not to buy the good stuff when it was affordable. Today they don't seem to drop anymore - the few recorded auctions seems to be selling of old items.

Originally Posted by Alice

i can tell you, it isn't worth it, believe it or not

I believe any word you say, no question! ;-)

It's just that the healing chips have something FAPs don't have: range. My poor carried medium heal chip, with my poor skills, has more than once bought team mates the time to reload their FAP's, thus saving them from certain death.

Would I be able to get a suitable implant I'd skill more MF and get me a potent/ powerful heal chip, too. But I'll not bury vast amounts of money in, this important it is not.

But since supply is close to zero, prices are insanely high, even if demand is low.

To the argument (of others) that ME price would go up if more MF would be used:

Right, price would go up. For ME, for sweat, for nexus.
But: More ppl then would go sweating. More ppl then would get their dusty enmat finders from stash & buy some probes. More sweat would come to the market, more nexus would come to the market, prices would fall again.

But both sweat & nexus would be traded more, and even for prices like todays this would mean a win for MA (more probes sold, more decay on finders & extractors), the newer participants (more easy selling of sweat & nexus because of higher demand), and even for the more advanced ones (more demand for crafted low-lvl finders, easier to find ME, more toys to use).

The real problem is that MF is an abandoned child from MA - once invented, then forgotten. It could be easily re-adopted, with making more MF tools, letting drop more of the current ones, maybe adjusting the properties of the existing ones. This would bring money into MA's pockets and quite some more possibilities and diversity into todays rather boring "game play".

Imagine this scenario from my dreams:

• Ma has continued the initial MF idea, implementing quite a number of new chips/ implants, some (L), some craftable, and the BP's are actually dropping.
• MA has introduced some sort of aggro management, so mobs would attack, following certain rules, those that are most threat for them
• Melee users then would generate loads of threat, no creature is loving getting cut to pieces from a nearby Xandra ...
• Ranged users then would generate less threat, after all they're far away, mobs are stupid and take a while to realize where this painful stings are coming from
• A team then would consist of a "tank" (melee user), a "Healer" (MF user) and a bunch of ranged damage dealers. The healer keeps the tank alive, the tank tortures the mob enough so that it don't think of attacking anyone other, the damage dealers kill the mob. We just have invented 2 new professions ...
• MA has decided to further add to MF, and has introduced some more MF chips:
  • Daze chips: Using these on an enemy overloads its synapses with raw energy, completely disabling it for a short time (crowd control).
  • Shield chips: Covers a friendly target in a shielding energy field that absorbs a certain amount of damage (Buffing).
  • Reality distortion chips: Makes a friendly target invisible to all inhabitants of this world, and adds 100% damage bonus to the first attack - generates insane amounts of threat then (Stealth).
  • (Not all of the MF chips might be usable together - maybe a set of two skills that are balanced? If "Agressive MF" goes up, "Defensive MF" goes down and vice versa?)
• MA has remembered that there's something long forgotten like "Melee" and has dropped at least one UL Dai-Nano Katana (L) BP to Xandra ...
• Everybody is happy - we have quite some new meaningful professions, the age of the H400 clones is gone forever, team hunting has a new meaning because now a team can be ways stronger then the sum of the individuals
• oh, woke up - guess it was not EU I was dreaming of ...

Have fun!

[Nighthawk]

Originally Posted by Xandra

I made the mistake not to buy the good stuff when it was affordable. Today they don't seem to drop anymore - the few recorded auctions seems to be selling of old items.

So one of the main things MA need to do except making new (L)/UL chips is adding to the droprate of the inserts?