Hunting with MF...

[andyzammy]

ok, ive been wandering about this for absolutely ages...

ive used "The Mindforce Guide" in this section to help me do the maths, and here goes:

oh btw im comparing the lvl 3 NB chip to amped opalo 103:

With NB Chip:

implant decay = 1pec (using tt implant)
NB chip decay = 1pec (lvl III)
ME = 5x3 = 15pec (thats the "killer")

total = 1 shot costs 17 pec


With Amped Opalo:

Opalo decay = 1pec
amp103 decay = 2pec (doesnt look it, but amp decay's the killer here)
ammo = 3x1 = 3pec

total = 1 shot costs 6pec

looks quite harsh, and maybe my theory would work if i had better skills, but if u think about the dmg done here, twould make the maths a lot nicer on the NB chip:

NB chip:
dmg = 34 (i kno its 36 in the guide but u never quite do max dmg..)
cost = 17pec
.: dmg/cost ratio = 2

Opalo:
dmg = 19pec
cost = 6pec
.: dmg/cost ratio = 3.166

(btw the lower the ratio the less eco)

ok, so its a lil less eco, but not by that much, a third. im guessing, that when you upgrade ur opalo (hell, even just the amp itself!) to a more intermediate one, the eco will go down (probably more than the NB now).

the only way the NB is worse than the opalo is its reload time. to me, time of this sort means very little to me. the only time it would be suicide to use NB over opalo would be somthin like trying to take on a way tougher mob than you therefore you need to hheal a lot. i myself never do this, so twould seem i have advantages over people with this one. it may not be the fastest way to kill a mob, but weapon wise, tis the cheapest.

i kno ur gonna say "yeah but because im being attacked for longer, my armour would take more dmg = more decay!!!" thats not quite true, imo, the NB makes up for this by dealing way more dmg than the amped opalo, so i recon it would take around the same time (i dont know exactly because i havent timed it).

ok, i forsee another argument coming up: "yeah, but with MF, if u get hit, you lose focus!!!"
ok, yes, with focus, MF hunting takes the fall, but, instead of skilling ur MF by bubbling all others that walk past you, just skill on urself, before every hunt. that way, ur not wasting ur money on someone else. either that, or look for a bubbler thats skilling on n00bs, and ask them to fill you up (quite a paradox, isnt it )

plz dont hesitate to shoot me down with whatever you can throw at me, all criticism welcome

[forgo]

Im a MF noob pretty much but have been goin out and skilling it some....definately seems to be worse with high cost/slow reload and interrupt chances when focus runs out ect. But I dont notice it to be breaking my wallet when I do.

And I use opalo with 104 as far as opalo goes, though til 10k rifle its probably better than most in economy vs non tt/(L) guns. I dont know for sure either, if you get max economy on the NB chips with the right skills or not, I assume so, and if so then it would be better in economy I'd think. (opalo is 10/10 pretty quick, making it one of the best guns before hitting tt+600 or more)

But I imagine that the higher chips when you get the skills would be a much better return with the skills built up, and thats probably where MF use could top rifle economy.

Still doesnt seem as bad as your comparison though, especially since I buy only sweat and have a ton of nexus piled up from mining to make my own ME much cheaper. I consider my nexus free since ive been ahead on mining overall.

So that makes it 6.5 pec decay (1.1x5 and 1 pec for chip) =

5.15 dmg/cost off 34 average damage
3.85 dmg/cost off very low psycho 25ish damage average
Still better overall to the opalo's 3.16 , at least with free nexus.

the implant charge is only when the chip goes dead, which with minor skilling, so far I havnt seen it, besides when i put my chips in.

Like I said im a noob MF'er with only 200ish psycho or less (my damage average is probably more like 25), Can only imagine the return to be much better with 1k+, and better chips. Hope that helps some.

[andyzammy]

yeah, ok ur mining ur own nexus, thats always a good way to go, and even better for you that ur doin good enough in mining u dont even miss the peds u'd make if u sold that nexus...

i see where ur goin when u say "well, if u look at it this way..." to try and make MF sound much more cheaper to use, but the fact is that the price to pay is still there, no matter if you only paid it when you take the chip out ur head or not... yes, makes it sound much cheaper, but if u think that way, it'l hit u harder when repair time comes, and you say to urself "hang on a sec... i thought i was doin alright with MF there...". you get exactly the same in hunting if you dont repair everything. i used to do that myself, and when it came to repairing my amp, i wasnt a happy bunny at all.

yeah, skills play a big part in everything (well, lets face it, skills make the world go round in PE). im actually thinking of redoing the NB stats for the lvl I lesser chip... as the dmg i do is so low (actually it varies wildly) i think it would be worth paying 1 less ME per shot, it would actually be better to begin with. that would put the eco up a bit...

yeah, think im gonna lay my gun down for a while, nd blow the dust off my probes... i never had any joy with mining, but i think its time to get some tips off my fellow soc.... *cough PHASER *

[Dale]

Nice initiative, but I think your calc is underestimating the opalo.
I'm pretty sure it decays less than 1pec/shot, and so is more efficient.

The other big problem with NB chips is the skills required to use them.

My hit ability with opalo is 10/10, as it is with everyone with something like 500 in rifle or above.

Compare that with Nerve blast chips. With 3k psycho, (and higher in aim, etc) I only have hit ability 2.0 with the medium nerve blast chip.

So effectively, you'll miss much more with Nerve blast than opalo, as you would using any other rifle rather than opalo.

Finally, once you start using higher level chips (level 4-7), the max damage is also modified. Instead of being able to do a range of damage from say 30%-100% of the chips total, the maximum is capped at double your minimum.

So, the inefficiency of not being skilled with NB chips (and also firestorm) is doubled compared to using higher level rifles. So, until MA fix the stats of the mindforce chips/overhaul the whole system, NB hunting isn't viable. Instead it's more a tool for skilling up your psycho/concentration in the hope of using better TP chips accurately, or opening wormholes.

[andyzammy]

hmm.

yeah i prolly shoulda fired way more shots... might test it, might look it up...

Originally Posted by Dale

Compare that with Nerve blast chips. With 3k psycho, (and higher in aim, etc) I only have hit ability 2.0 with the medium nerve blast chip.

wow. as i say, and said before, i have next to nil skill in using MF, so i wouldnt know.. yeah i think right now, my hit ability is 0.1/10 with Med NB :P. ok, whats ur hit ability with lesser @ ur current skills? .... i just never knew...

Originally Posted by Dale

Finally, once you start using higher level chips (level 4-7), the max damage is also modified. Instead of being able to do a range of damage from say 30%-100% of the chips total, the maximum is capped at double your minimum.

again, due to lack of experience, im oblivious to this info (esp forestorm :P). is the max dmg displayed on the chip? i never saw a max and min dmg, just the amount of dmg it did (36 electric..)...

hmm i have made one of two mistakes:
1) did not do my homework properly and messed up eco everything, will prolly redo that.
2) jumped the gun completely, and bought the right chips but @ the wrong lvls.

would it be best to downgrade ALL my chips??

i have med Heal and med NB and am very close to obtaining med Focus... only my tp is lesser.

see, the only reason i went high first is because most chips @ lol lvl needed some amount of ME and had same decay, therefore i thought that i could get more for less if i went hight first. looks like my thinking backfired

[Squiglet]

From www.pe-wiki.info

Opalo + 103: 4.32 dam/pec, 13.3 dam/sec.
Opalo + 104: 4.35 dam/pec, 14.7 dam/sec.

Lv3 NB chip: 2.51 dam/pec, 12.6 dam/sec.

So two points, Lv3 NB is far lower economy and a lower damage per second (which is the important part when trying to kill big mobs). Secondly slapping a better amp onto the opalo increases the economy of the weapon.

Now for my favourate;

Mann MPH + 104: 4.43 dam/pec, 22.5 dam/sec.

which is nice

of course you have to have to skills to use each weapon correctly to get full advantage from them but I think NB will never stand up against amped lasers for efficiency.

[Dale]

Originally Posted by andyzammy

hmm.

yeah i prolly shoulda fired way more shots... might test it, might look it up...


wow. as i say, and said before, i have next to nil skill in using MF, so i wouldnt know.. yeah i think right now, my hit ability is 0.1/10 with Med NB :P. ok, whats ur hit ability with lesser @ ur current skills? .... i just never knew...

again, due to lack of experience, im oblivious to this info (esp forestorm :P). is the max dmg displayed on the chip? i never saw a max and min dmg, just the amount of dmg it did (36 electric..)...

hmm i have made one of two mistakes:
1) did not do my homework properly and messed up eco everything, will prolly redo that.
2) jumped the gun completely, and bought the right chips but @ the wrong lvls.

would it be best to downgrade ALL my chips??

i have med Heal and med NB and am very close to obtaining med Focus... only my tp is lesser.

see, the only reason i went high first is because most chips @ lol lvl needed some amount of ME and had same decay, therefore i thought that i could get more for less if i went hight first. looks like my thinking backfired

Working thru from the top...
yeah ive not tested the oplao to exhaustion either, but im pretty sure lots of people have (thx squiglet for the wiki stats).

I dont have a lesser NB chip, but i think hit ability is the same for levels 1-3, then reduces as the chip level increases. For example on the level 7 NB chip, my HA is only 1.1

Max and min dmg are displayed on the chip. on the stats page it shows your damage interval. with an unamped opalo almost all players will have damage interval 4.0-8.0. Maximum damage with opalo is 8 burn i think.
So the minimum damage they do is 50% of the rifle's maximum possible output and the maximum is 100% (ie 8.0)
So, I'd guess, your average shot with an oplao would do maybe 75% of that maximum.

You'll see on your medium nerve blast chip, your damage interval is something like 10.8-36 (guessing the lower bound), which means you could do anything from 30% of the chips potential damage to 100% of the damage, so on average, you're going to be doing something like 65% of the maximum (ie lower than that of the opalo).

This last paragraph is the same for all rifles other than the opalo though.

The bit where Mindforce comes into it's own in inefficiency is that the later chips (levels 4+ (ie moderate and above)) is that the maximum damage you can do is twice your minimum. So, if the lower bound on your dmg interval was 30% of the maximum, your personal maximum on that chip would be 60%.
So you may look at the chip and think it does (made up numbers here) 60 damage for 8 ME, but actually, you can only do at most 45 damage.

Have a look at the stats page of one of the firestorm chips on auction to see what i mean.

The only way to ever be able to fire a blast which would be the maximum, would be to have 10k in RDA, anatomy, IRD, MMS, etc.

As for which chips to use, it's up to you. Lesser TP chip is very useful, and worthwhile and accurate even at low skills. cost per tp at 9ME is fairly reasonable too (compared with say 118 (i think) ME for a good TP)

As for heal/NB/focus. The level 3 chips are reasonable enough to start with IMHO. However, as far as im aware, even though levels 1,2,3 all use 1ME, the cost does increase as level 3 chip decays more than level 2 chip. So it isn't a case of getting something extra for nothing by using level 3 as opposed to level 1 or 2.

Im sure there's more, but this post's long enough. Let me know if anything needs clarifying

[andyzammy]

aw, thats a bitch, all lvl's I-III have same hit ability stats???

um, according to MF Guide, for Focus, Heal and NB, the decay (for the actual chips) are the same for lvl's I-III. they do not differ. unless you include using ME as decay, than fair enough, yes they do...

hmm ok then uve sort of convinced me to not go too Hardcore on the Hunting/Skilling (for now @D)....

i will rise again...