After One Month of Playing

[SnapNet]

Originally Posted by krillehog

Depositing is not the only way MA makes money of, there's also different "taxes" (auction-fee etc) that you pay in-world as an earlier thread-poster mentioned.
So as long as there is PEDs in-world the economy of Entropia will spin and MA will get revenues. So they are not solely reliant on depositors.

Originally Posted by Kerham

Did you even thought before posting this?

Let's picture this: the energy bill guy (Joe) comes in MA HQ. Where he talks with Jan (MA Ceo).

Joe: hey guys. You have to pay 2500 Euro this month for the energy consumed here.

Jan: ah, ofc, let's see, look this month we had 2 millions auction transactions so we gained 112,345 PED only from that. So, give me the bill in PED and we will pay you.

Joe: sorry, we accept only Euro here in Germany (MA server park is in Germany afaik).

Jan: oh, it can't be, look, this EF poster said we gain auction fees.

Joe: whatever. 2,500 Euro please.

Jan: so you don't accept PED.

Joe: wtf is this PED afterall?

Jan: well... some ...ehm... virtual money we give to depositors in exchange of $ and Bates will surely tell you some of them pay their rent with ingame earnings!

Joe: Geez.. Ok, please, 2,500 Euros for the energy bill..

Jan: Ah, now wait, look, we also have 4,523,121,211 PED gained in decay this month.

Joe: Ok.. look, I'll gonna let you the bill. You have 30 days period of grace, then you pay penalties. Real money, please, good bye.

Jan: *small voice* damn these newbs who don't read EF and don't understand how we make real money from decay & stuff..

Uhm, I think there is always a misconception among the player community base regarding PED and MA. For example, Kerham, why wouldn't MA be able to pay this poor energy bill guy?

Do you think MA has their money in PED?!?! You know what happens when you deposit? That money goes to MA's brokerage account and is invested in money market funds/bonds/high-yield checking accounts/growth funds/commodities/etc/etc/etc. This money leaves the EU world completey! The PED that you see in the game is "fake", or at least, it's a reflection of the "real" money that MA has in the bank accrueing interest!

Krillehog, I wouldn't be surprised if a large chunk of MA's money is made by this accrueing of interest, dividend gains, market values gains, etc... actually, I'm interested to see if they include this on their Financial Papers... will check tonight when I get home from work.

I'm sure MA has some type of a Contigency Fund, or "PED Withdaw" Fund that is, again, on their bank account accrueing interest. This fund is their source of "re-paying" back the PEDs that are being withdrawn by players.

Think about how much interest can be accumulated if you have say, $20 Million - $30 Million in the bank?? MA doesn't have their money in PED.

[Sirhc]

Geez Louise!

First off welcome to Entropia Universe.

It has no subscription fee which is awesome IMO. It should never change.

The perfect Yoda quote for this is:

Do, or do not. There is no 'try.

So many think they can never attain this or that in EU. Well its possible and there are a multitude of ways to make it happen. Nothing will happen over night unless you are a trust fund baby but that is the reality of this little piece of virtual reality.

EU is not easy its taken me years and time to develop my avatar and I am still not entirely where I want my avatar to be. Some of that is just due to finances other parts of development are hampered by limited time to play.

EU is an ongoing unending story and you can pay as much as you like whenever you feel like paying it.

Yes EU is a challenge and if you don't approach it right you can spend a lot of money. When I look back on my years in EU I remember being new and looking at the "uber" players of the time. Did that deter me? no I saw it as a challenge worth working towards and I still work towards it to this day. To me nothing is quite like doing the right things to make your ped card and avatar grow. I see people at all levels doing the same thing.

[Miles]

This is drifting a bit off topic, but yes, the Entropia Economy would not exist without a constant input of new funds. EU takes a cut based on decay, but they have to withdraw those PEDS from EU in exchange for real currency, and the real currency comes from depositors (and advertisers, licensing fees, etc) and without a steady stream of income they couldn't pay their bills, as has been stated in this thread.

The EU model, unlike a subscription-based one, is based on skimming from the economy, and the economy grows because more members choose to deposit (due to the entertainment or investment value they expect to receive) more than is withdrawn by both MA and EU members.

MA's ongoing challenge is to continually develop new entertainment and investment opportunities for its members. If they are successful, then economic activity grows and MA's cut (income) grows with it. If the EU economy slows then their cut is reduced.

This model gives MA the incentive to develop EU's economy (increase total player activity) in a way that encourages members to deposit without requiring it. By having all types of members, from "freeloading" sweaters to mega-depositors, newbies to pre-gold ubers, EU has the diversity of needs among its members to allow for a vibrant economy.

I have played for a little over a year and the tools and supplies I need to buy, and the resources and products I acquire and use or sell, are constantly changing. If MA were to somehow level everyone out, as the OP suggested, it would destroy the dynamic that makes EU go, as well as all incentive to progress within EU.

I have deposited on occasion, but I do not consider myself a depositor in the sense it is used by most people. I deposited to provide my avatar the means to earn his own way in EU. I am a professional hunter who mines a bit and crafts a bit on the side. I am successful in that I able to survive and grow in EU - to make a living as it were - through my EU activity.

In RL I earn a RL living, in EU - my virtual life - I earn a virtual living. If I had to deposit, what would be the point? When MA said to me, in what little marketing exposure I had before landing on Calypso, that there were different ways to make money, different professions I could pursue, I did not confuse that with making a RL income in my Virtual life. The fact that a few members are able to do that is good, and impressive, knowing how hard it is just to make it virtually, but it was not what I expected for myself.

When I have some money to transfer from RL to EU, I do it not so that I can keep playing, but so I can have a bigger bankroll and a more comfortable life in EU. I do appreciate that steady depositors and big investors make it possible, but I also know that this allows them a different experience, one that provides them (hopefully) with the experience they are looking for. Not everyone - in fact most - would probably not enjoy living here the way I do, and that is as it should be. For EU to be successful it will always need all classes of players, and even non-depositors play their part.

The OP's suggestions about tiered but limited deposits and leveling of the avatars (see p.s.) is tantamount to nuking EU. It goes against the very fabric of EU and everything is has to offer. Those who think it is a good idea should probably look for some new form of entertainment, because what the OP is suggesting is not going to happen.

No offense meant to the OP, I think it is good and healthy to discuss all aspects of EU here, and your post is different from the usual let's-have-a-basic-subscription-fee threads - which I also oppose - but really what you are suggesting seems to miss the whole point of EU, and what makes it so special.



Miles

p.s. The leveling concept proposed in the 3rd post involves splitting off a new server. There is only one EU and splitting off a new "server" (like so many MMRPG's) is also not an option. Again, the single, persistent universe is central to the whole EU concept.

[Mar73]

Originally Posted by krillehog

Depositing is not the only way MA makes money of, there's also different "taxes" (auction-fee etc) that you pay in-world as an earlier thread-poster mentioned.
So as long as there is PEDs in-world the economy of Entropia will spin and MA will get revenues. So they are not solely reliant on depositors.

I dunno if I get it but for non-depositors to be able re-cycle peds...peds must first be «created» and peds only gets «created» when a depo is made. Same thing for peds dumped into auction fees and da like...peds must be «created» first in order for them to be paid as auction fees.

So a non-depositor that spend peds is only allowing MA to mark those peds as «void» and thus they can actualy take that money`s worth beeing confident that no1 can actually ask to withdraw them.

I just can`t get how non-depositors can actually create wealth for MA and pay their bills. Only hard cash does this for MA and hard cash comes from depos.

[Sirhc]

Originally Posted by Mar73

I just can`t get how non-depositors can actually create wealth for MA and pay their bills. Only hard cash does this for MA and hard cash comes from depos.

Non-Depositors who collect the freebies and sell them earn ped. Some of that ped will eventually end up being decay which MA removes from EU. Also any resources they collect usually end up being refined or used in other processes which generate more decay which allows MA to remove more ped from EU. Some people who use those freebie items deposit to cover costs. Sweat refines to ME = decay -> ME used in MF = Decay just as an example.

So long as people are contributing to things that eventually lead to some type of decaying action MA will be able to funnel those peds out of EU and eventually someone or many someones (maybe even Ads as well) will deposit to keep that bucket full.

Even freebies eventually turn into decay at some point or the sweat gatherer who gained peds from sweating uses those to go mine or hunt.

[kosmos]

Originally Posted by Indigo Wyrd

Ya know something... I hear this all the time, and I have to ask:

How do you know? Do you have a copy of the source code?
Some sort of definitive answer from the developers?


All we have is speculation as to how things work,

this applies to alot of things. i hate going off topic, but i think many don't have much proof. all they can do is offer an educated guess, or state an observation. but some try to turn the guess into a fact.

[Kerham]

Originally Posted by SnapNet

Uhm, I think there is always a misconception among the player community base regarding PED and MA. For example, Kerham, why wouldn't MA be able to pay this poor energy bill guy?

Do you think MA has their money in PED?!?!

Exactly that was my point, that MA doesn't have their money in PED. Some ppl are so attached to the idea that decay & fees are "money for MA" that it is scary.

If you do this little effort to read the thread, you'll see I was just ridiculising the idea of money from thin air. I would +rep you for being a clear minded one, as is obvious and I would -rep you for not reading previous posts. So we call it even and I'll do nothing :P

@Sirhc:

Auction fees and decay and all that are not money for MindArk are just some tools.

The most probable hipothesys is that from the bulk of all deposits they take a certain quota for expanses, a certain quota for profit and a certain quota is safeguarded for withdrawals. Those quotas are prolly calculated checking the proportion of fees, decay etc vs. the whole mass of PED ingame.

And they probably developed some equation which says "in average, from a deposit of 100$, 85$ stay ingame, 15$ are withdrawn. From 85$, 25$ goes in decay, fees, etc, and 60$ is the continuous bankroll of avatar", so, presumably, they could safely move 25-40$ from one account to another.

But that happens from deposits. Not from Santa Clause's sweat.

[fresco]

Originally Posted by Kerham

You should reread what I wrote. Is not a whine, is an economics discussion. Without depositors, you can't have nondepositors, shortly put.

thats the general Idea...

RCE stands for real cash economy, so it is an extention of your regular life, just like a poker game with friends or buying a car - for instance if you buy expensive car and your nigbour gets one from parents, does that make her/him a non-depositor ? Sould he pay a monthly fee to make you happy?

well he/she actually does pay the huge fee - larger than any of your deposits - while dumping time into EU to get the game free (whithout deposit) you had enough time to make money to buy an expencive car...

so who is the "sucker" now?

[SnapNet]

Originally Posted by Kerham

Exactly that was my point, that MA doesn't have their money in PED. Some ppl are so attached to the idea that decay & fees are "money for MA" that it is scary.

If you do this little effort to read the thread, you'll see I was just ridiculising the idea of money from thin air. I would +rep you for being a clear minded one, as is obvious and I would -rep you for not reading previous posts. So we call it even and I'll do nothing :P ...

Okay, I gotcha. Yes, I agree with this. This also bugs me at times that people think MA is getting cash from decay/etc/etc in Real Time. They already have your cash stashed in a sweet bank account getting some serious interest.

We appear to "lose" the PED in real-time and I think that's what confuses the people. We lose/gain the PED in Real-Time and MA has already gotten the Revenue from you since the second you clicked the "Depo" button, so they don't "gain" the PED in Real-Time.

This is make-believe though, so I guess there's no harm to do so .... however, to go back to the OP's point, NO there should NOT be a monthly subscription! If you want to enjoy this game at different levels, then you will need to deposit! Nothing wrong with that. If you want to experience a game at all levels without depositing, then play WoW, or Guitar Hero .

[SnapNet]

Originally Posted by Kerham

Oh, I mean monthly fee as a minimum limit, for maximum, each can deposit whatever they want

...

By the way, this at first seems intriguing. Seems like it might actually help give the RCE a nice boost, however, after some thought, I think it would be a quick boost up, followed by a huge downward slide. Why?

Those that deposit in EU are those that know and understand that they can lose that cash. If you force everyone to deposit, it will simply anger those who do not feel prepared to contribute economically to an RCE. It is said that the average player sticks around EU for 6-12 months? Well, if you force them to pay $10 monthly and they lose it in 3 days, then I could confidently say that the average a player sticks around will be cut in half to maybe 3-6 months.

However, it also has the potential to desensitize people and help them go beyond the fear of depositing. Too many people are scared to deposit for one reason or another. Perhaps something like this would alleviate this feeling?? Don't know, but if I was MA, I would ease on the side of caution and keep things as is.