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07-30-2007, 11:39
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#1 | ||||||
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Old Alpha
 
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I've seen some confused ideas about economy, so partly for my benefit, and partly in case it's interesting for anyone else reading, I thought I'd post this. All of it is available from reading around ef...it's not meant to be new or original, but I wanted to gather everything together in one post.
What is economy In general, the accepted idea of economy (eco) means how much an item functions (eg damage by a weapon, heal by a fap etc) per pec spent. This allows you to compare two items with similar function, to see which will cost you least to use. It doesn't take into account other factors. So for example a FAP may be very eco to use, but if it only heals 10 HP it's probably not much use during combat. Or, as another example, some weapons have a faster dmg rate than others. Such things are generally not taken into account in eco comparisons. Several areas can cause confusion How to calculate economy of a weapon The economy of a weapon is the damage done per pec of cost. This can be calculated as max damage per pec, or as average damage per pec. In reality, on any given shot, a weapon will do an amount of damage somewhere in the range between the maximum and minimum damage for that person with that weapon. If the person is not skilled enough, the maximum damage they can do will not be as much as the theoretical maximum for the weapon. Let's take the common example for a newbie of the Sollomate Opalo, both with and without an A101 amp. For this example, we will consider the weapon as though it is maxed. First without amp... Damage per shot ranges from 4.0 to 8.0 This means an average of (4.0 + 8.0) / 2 = 6.0 Cost per shot = ammo cost + weapon decay = 2 + 0.02 = 2.02 pec Avg dmg / pec = 6.0 / 2.02 = 2.97 HP/pec Now with the A101 amp The A101 adds 3 dmg to the maximum Damage per shot ranges from 5.5 to 11.0 This means an average of (5.5 + 11.0) / 2 = 8.25 Cost per shot = ammo cost + weapon decay + amp decay = 2 + 0.02 + 0.652 = 2.672 pec Avg dmg / pec = 8.25 / 2.672 = 3.09 HP/pec Proving incidentally the commonly stated fact that an A101 makes the opalo more economical to use. The entropedia / pe-wiki eco data On entropedia, a weapon lists Dmg/pec. This is calculated using the maximum damage a weapon can do. So the entropedia data is the best dmg / pec you could do in one shot, if you are skilled enough, and achieve the maximum damage possible for the weapon in that shot. This is not an average dmg/pec over a hunt. Here's an example to illustrate the dangers (thanks to Alice for supplying the data) Player A uses the opalo from the examples above. Damage ranges from 4.0 - 8.0 per shot. Player B uses the Jester D-1. This also has a max damage of 8. But this is not an SIB weapon, so player B has a minimum damage of 2.2 on this weapon. This varies depending on the player's skills, and this is just an example. Both weapons cost the same 2.02 pecs per shot in ammo + decay costs. On entropedia, the dmg/pec is calculated using the max damage of 8 in both cases, so both show 3.96 HP / pec So you would think they have the same economy? Not true. Player A (opalo) achieves an average damage of 6.0 HP / shot, as we saw above, so average dmg / pec = 2.97 HP / pec. Player B (jester) achieves an average damage of (2.2 + 8.0) / 2 = 5.1 HP / shot. So average dmg / pec = 5.1 / 2.02 = 2.52 HP / pec. Less than with the opalo. Clearly for this player, the opalo is significantly more economical. Suppose they both hunt snable female youngs (40 HP each) on a 10 ped hunt. Player A (opalo) can hunt 1000 x 2.97 / 40 snables = 74 snables. Player B (jester) can only hunt 1000 x 2.52 / 40 = 63 snables. That's 11 more snables with the opalo. The max damage economy is a useful comparison, but it's important to understand what it leaves out. Even so, if the data is used with care, it is a very valuable source of information. Effect of final shots Let's say you're killing a snable male young. This has 20HP. You use an opalo + A101 and this is maxed. You shoot 2 shots and do damage of 8.5 on the first shot and 10.5 on the second. Total damage dealt so far: 19 HP. The mob only has 1 HP left. You shoot again. With this final shot, you do only 1HP of damage for a cost of 2.672 pec, using the figures from above. You cannot do more than 1 HP of damage, because that's all poor Mr snable has left. So dmg per pec here = 1 / 2.672 = 0.373 HP/pec. Aaarrrghh - horrible economy.  Even if you could do the max damage every time you shot, the last shot will always be worse than the optimum economy. This means the mobs you are hunting affect your economy. The normal solution to the above problem is to use a finisher. A weapon which may have worse economy than your normal weapon, but deals less damage overall, so the last shot costs less. Effect of markup On a limited item, decay is not repairable at TT rates. In this case, markup affects economy. Here's an example with the VIVO T5 (L) Fap. The decay on the T5 is 1.607 pec per use giving a max heal of 18.3 HP. But remember that the actual average heal over many uses will be less - you don't always get the maximum. For this example, let's take the minimum heal to be 75% of the maximum. If skills aren't high enough, you won't get this level of healing, but for this example, we'll assume they are. So max heal of T5 = 18.3 Min heal = 75% of 18.3 = 13.7 Average heal = (18.3 + 13.7) /2 = 16 HP. Remember the decay of 1.607 pec per use. If you could buy at TT price, this would mean you could heal on average 16 / 1.607 = 9.96 HP / pec. Looks good  Now we add in the markup. Markup is around 113% (peauction.com) So now the cost of the whole fap is 13% higher than the TT price, which means each use of the fap costs 13% more. Decay therefore costs 1.607 x 1.13 = 1.816pec / heal. So economy is now 16 / 1.816 = 8.81 HP / pec. Not looking quite so nice. (Actually it's still quite good compared to FAP-xx type faps and it has SIB too) Effect of HA Suppose you are back to killing Mr snable young with your opalo again. You shoot and do damage of 5.0 and 7.0 on the 1st 2 shots. Then the 3rd shot you miss. 4th shot you do 8.0 and exactly kill him. Total damage dealt: 20 HP Total cost: 4 shots @ 2.02 pec per shot = 8.08 Dmg / pec on this kill = 20 / 8.08 = 2.48 HP/pec Not as good as the opalo is supposed to do (2.97 HP/pec, see above) even though the shots that counted were slightly above average. Why? A missed shot does not damage, but still costs you 2.02 pec. Even more if you use an amp. The standard eco figures do not take missed shots into account. Typically, even if you have 10 / 10 HA on a weapon, you will still miss some shots, which lowers your eco when using that weapon. The lower your HA, the worse your eco will be with that weapon. Effect of skills on damage range Now let's look at another player who is unable to achieve the maximum damage on an opalo, because their skills are not as high. Their damage range on this weapon is from 3.3 to 6.6 Even if they never miss, the average damage per shot is only (3.3 + 6.6) / 2 = 4.95 But the cost is still 2.02 pec Dmg / pec for this player is only 2.45 HP / pec The theoretical maximum figures for a weapon's economy don't apply to every player. If you have lower skills and cannot achieve the theoretical maximum damange range, that weapon will have lower eco for you. Mindforce (MF) economy One common confusion surrounds economy of MF. I'll just make a plain statement here before going into the details: MF is not generally economical for hunting, compared to a gun Why? Go back to the original definition of economy above. Economy includes all the costs resulting from one use of the item. In the case of MF chips, the decay figures on entropedia are the decay of the chip. They don't include: - decay of the implant - a share of the implant insert/removal cost Also unlike weapon ammo, MF ammo is not available from the TT. MF uses mind essence (ME) as ammo, which is generally bought from other players at 200-220% of TT value (today's prices). And as always, remember that the actual damage achieved on average is not the maximum - you don't always achieve the maximum damage. I won't go into detailed calculations here - they are in several places on EF if anyone wants to see some examples. But in summary, most of the cost of using MF is the mind essence, so a 200% price for ME means pretty much that the economy is half what it looks like from entropedia. When you take these into account as well, the cost per use of an MF chip turns out to be much worse than a typical non-MF weapon. A final note Of course eco is not all there is...often a less eco weapon or item is better to use because it gives specifically desired skills, or is just more fun to use. You could argue that armour decay is relevant to weapon use cost, but it isn't generally included, for the simple reason that armour decay is different for each person, depending on their evade level, the armour they are using, the mobs hunted and so on. Also a weapon that deals more damage per second will kill a mob quicker, so it has less chance to heal while you kill it. But again, this is not normally included in eco calculations, since it is not part of the cost of using the weapon. In other words, there is more to hunting economically than just the plain cost per use figures. Each person needs to adapt the figures to their own situation. However, weapon or item economy is simply results achieved (dmg / heal) per ped of cost. So with some careful thought about common problems/errors, published eco figures do allow you to compare the effectiveness of different weapons or tools, if all other factors remain the same. I hope this provides some useful info to other ppl. It certainly answers some questions I remember having when I started. If there's more that can be said on this topic, that I should add, please tell me. Last edited by KP708; 07-31-2007 at 08:46. Reason: Added notes about HA and dmg range |
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  KP's current objective: looting pixie feet, 1200SG Achieved objectives: 1000 SG, 200 Conc What is weapon economy
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07-30-2007, 15:02
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#2 | ||||||
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Elite
 
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little summary of some of my posts in another thread
for this example i use a snablesnot male young, 20 HP kat honor, 19.4-56 dam (with my skills), decay 13 pec and a maxed opalo, 4-8 dam (with maxed opalo in dam) i wont take the hit ability into calculation (which makes the opalo even better) so, lets say you use the honor and hit the snable once with 19.4 i have to strike again, thats a cost of 26 pec to kill it but you we say we do one hit kills, alright, so 13 pec the opalo does just min dam, means 4, what he does at least he needs 5 shots, or 10.1 pec to kill the snable, and that at max, most likely he will be even lower,since i assumed that he always does the lower possible damage but lets count with 10.1 pec sum it up with honor kill 1000 snables, all 1 hit kills, 130.00 ped with opalo kills 1000 snables, all at min decay, 101 00 ped the difference in cost honor compared to the opalo newbie is 29 ped for this 29 ped, the you can go for ~287 more snables and that means, you have 289 more changes to get loot THAT is eco eco means the output in relation to the input for the output the newbie spends less (or maximun theory) or for the same input (if we both had used 130 ped) with opalo you could have killed 1287, with honor 1000 that is the minimum theory with a firm input reaching better output about mindforce the formula in the beginning eco (dam per pec) = damage (output) / decay + ammo burn (input) here the relevant stats for the med NB chip, from wiki damage 36 HP Ammo: 5 Decay: 1,100 PEC Dmg/PEC: 5,90 HP so, you have 36 / 5 + 1.1 = 5.9 eco right ? wrong first of all, the implant you have in your head decays each time when you shoot to make this easy, say 1 pec (i use a Bd, which is a bit more actually, but that has other advantages) the Bd implant decays 1.1 pec each time, the max tt is 132, (so min tt is 3.96 [3% of max tt], what leaves actively 128.04 ped of tt for skilling that are 11640 uses, until you have to repair the chip after these 11640 uses, you have to extract the implant with a payn inc implant inserter, which has 2 ped decay for extracting, and you have to insert it again, again 2 ped, so overall 4 ped that counts to the decay too, but to make it easy, lets ingore that so say, you have the implant decay of 1 pec each shot again to the med NB damage 36 HP Ammo: 5 Decay: 1,100 PEC Dmg/PEC: 5,90 HP so, you have 36 (max dam) / 5 (tt of ME used per shot) + 1.1 (decay chip) + 1 (decay implant) = 5.07 hell, that is still damn good, isn't it?? wrong well, as long you won't find me a supplier who sells me ME at tt value so, whats price of ME lately? 220% ? lets count with 200% for easier numbers 36 / 10 (market price of ME used per shot) + 1.1 + 1 = 2.9 !!! again, dam per pec = 2.9 "bah, use the higher chips, they are even more eco !!" wrong i use the mod heal as example, here the relevant stats from wiki Damage: 39 HP Ammo: 5 Decay: 1,700 PEC Dmg/PEC: 5,82 HP SIB: Yes since i already explained the ME and implant decay thingie, lets count with those numbers immediatly 39 (max dam) = 10 (market value of ME used per shot) / 1,7 (decay chip) + 1 (decay implant) = 3.07 "heck, at least better than the medium nerve blast!" wrong we calculated with max dam, as you can see on the screenie, and in wiki, the moderate chip has SIB if you had taken your time to check, all NB chips above medium have a SIB that means, you can be very eco as soon they are maxed, but until they are maxed, you will not be able to deal full damage at the moment i can do max 22 damage 22 / 10 + 1,7 + 1 = 1.7 !!! again, dam per pec = 1.7 now, let me tell you, that you need HUGE skills in MF to max those chips out ESPECIALLY the higher ones what i didn't calculate here was the average damage i also didn't calculate the hit ability, but if you imagine, that you blow with 1 missed shot ME worth 10 pec away, you can imagine that this can't be eco too too summarize that, MF hunting is most likely the most expensive way of hunting you can imagine and a little example, with flowers  i guess you can see that the opalo has a higher min dam interval than the jester d1 but the same max dam, also a higher hit ability opalo 4.0-8.0 / 2.2-8.0 jester d1 that means you deal less damage with the jester d1 on occasions but you use the same amount of cash to shoot so, and if i tell you know say, i give you a flower and there are 2 persons infront of you, you dont know any of them, and have to decide immediatly to whom you will give the flower 1 yellow flower cost 2.02 ped person A will give you 4-8 ped for the flower person B will give you 2.2-8 ped for the flower to what person will you give the flower ? will it be person B, where you might be below 4 ped or person A, where you have the 4 ped at least for sure ? now, i will give you 10 000 flowers same choice is your answer person A ? the hit ability opalo 10 / 1.6 jester you might know that 10> 1.6 with every miss you you blow 2.02 ped away that is more likely to happen with the jester, so you blow more cash in the air in the long run 10HA is around 92% hit ability, and 1.6 might be around 85% so, now i will place 2 boxes of flowers infront of you Box A has 92% flowers you can sell, others can't be sold, limp Box B has 85% flowers you can sell, others are cant be sold, limp which box do you choose ? the one with the most flowers you can sell, or the other one ? now, we combine that person A gives you 4-8 ped per flower, but just if you take the 92% box person B gives you 2.2-8 ped per flower but just if you take the 85% box which deal is better for you? the one where you have the most profit for sure or the one where you will most likely have more loss ? now, armor and fap decay in what case will you have more armor and fap decay when you use the opalo that does at least 4 damage, and even hits most likely or the jester, when many more shots will miss, and even if they hit will often deal lower damage? option 2 has higher armor and fap decay? not to mention that you can heal with vivo T1 cheaper than with the fap5 |
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07-30-2007, 16:13
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InGame-Productions
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Nice thread KP708! Gotta give you +rep for putting it together. I'm in the process of writing something up for myself that will explain all this in the MOST simplest terms (Alice did a great job on it by the way!) as well. I understand what these mean, BUT it never hurts to write things down over and over
 . Nice post.Plandon, I don't see the error you're stating?!  person A will give you 4-8 ped for the flower (Your Opalo Dmg Range interval) person B will give you 2.2-8 ped for the flower (Your D-1 Dmn Range interval) |
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07-30-2007, 16:22
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Old Alpha
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Quote:
Glad I got my A101 a while ago  And thanks Alice for adding to what I said. Makes it very clear that there is a difference between weapon economy and hunting economy. A weapon may be very eco, say (I wish) 7 HP/pec, but if this hypothetical weapon does dmg in the range 20-40, then it's not eco when hunting snable male youngs with only 20 HP. I'll add a section to my OP about HA...forgot that one and it's vitally important too. And I like the flower example...makes it all very clear, and is corrrect imo. plandon I know you said different...please can you explain the error you can see for my benefit - thx I can understand maybe criticism could stem from the fact that the damage return (4-8 for opalo / person A) is not peds in a real hunt but HP. So we don't get 1 ped loot per HP of dmg (wish we did  ). And the 2.02 cost is technically pecs for an opalo.But I think it was fairly clear this was a simplified example to explain eco and not a mathematical model for hunting. So unless I've missed something obvious, I think it's fine. |
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07-30-2007, 17:50
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#8 | ||||||||
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Provider
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While weapon A may be 0.001 pec cheaper per click to use over weapon B, but if it has a 10,000 PED repair bill {armor, FAP, etc} per hour, then weapon B is much cheaper to use. This is an exaggeration to make a point. Another example of lower eco, is a weapon that has a very good eco rating using your definition, but kills so slowly that you see a mob regen HP a few times, thus leading to more bullets used and decay. This drives up the cost to use the weapon; ie less eco. I am glad you included damage vs mob HP, at least partially, in the OP. It's good to have a finisher, but not everyone can afford to have 2 weapons. Another eco consideration is market forces, which you partially alluded to. The Breer M3a (L) is vastly more eco than the Breer M4a (L) due soley because of the huge mark up. Eliminate the market forces and there are about equal in the eco rating. Also, a Breer M4a (L) is now more eco than it used to be a few weeks ago {if you are lucky} because someone is dumping a few in auction at 25 ped less than the normal price. A 275 ped Breer M4a (L) is more eco than a 300 ped Breer M4a (L). This shows that not even the exact same weapon always has an identical eco rating. This shows that eco rating is not as cut and dry as some might think. Quote:
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07-30-2007, 18:58
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Old Alpha
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If you hunt, you will presumably use a weapon. That will deliver a certain dmg / pec. While you hunt, you may use armour. Not everyone does. It depends on what you hunt, vs what your evade skills are, and whether you are solo or in a team. Remember this... Quote:
You can't make comparisons between weapons by trying to take into account other factors. A comparison between 2 things (eg opalo vs nerveblast to take a random example) must be done keeping all other factors the same. Otherwise it's not a comparison. A 10,000 ped per hour repair bill when hunting with weapon B in your example does not make weapon B more expensive to use. It makes hunting those mobs with that weapon and that armour and fap combination more expensive for you. However, economy is defined as damage dealt per pec of cost. It's really that simple. You can then use this information to work out what's best for you in a certain situation, taking into account what you want to achieve. Quote:
Yes you could consider it, but how much difference will this make? Quote:
If you're keen to go the eco route, saving for a fninsher is not going to break the bank. Call it 366 bottles of sweat. Quote:
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It was a lot more long-winded than that, but I think that's the gist. I don't want to get into a discussion about whether or not newbies have it easier, but one reason you were told you had it wrong in the other thread is that you made some incorrect statements about economy of weapons and MF, among other things. Now I think what you're saying here is that eco is really complicated and we're not taking enough factors into account. If you want to produce a table listing all the mob types and maturities, with what the cost to kill 100 of them is with each different weapon and armour and fap combination, for every skill level, be my guest. Meanwhile, without this detailed table, we have the type of calculations I detailed in my OP which people can use to determine for themselves which weapon is more or less economical to use. However, I saw that you quoted my post in the other thread as support for your argument that Alice is getting it wrong. It isn't and she's not. That won't work. Hf |
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07-30-2007, 20:18
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