The new Swedish surveillance law

[StrongMinded]

Originally Posted by Count Joe

you can still send a letter

but still, why do ppl think there is something called privacy on internet? everything you do is stored somewhere. If you use Gmail for example, they are scanning you emails hard for information

True that, but as i said before.. It´s not about hiding stuff for the government.. I´m pretty sure that if someone wanted to do a terrorist thing towards Sweden they wouldn´t be blabbering over the phone or internet...

The law is going against the law of a persons integrity and now they don´t need to talk to a prosecutor to wiretap a phone etc. they can just do it, no questions asked, we are all guilty and can be selected as potential terrorists just by our wording in a phonecall or email...

Stupid example: Let´s say that you play counter strike or whatever and send an email to a friend: We sucked at killing those guys yesterday and that´s why the bomb exploded.. Lets try again... The words killing and bomb can be trigger words in the computer and suddenly they are observing you.

[burnsey]

Originally Posted by Etopia

Why you care someone may watch your com ? do you have something illegal to hide ?

Have you read 1984 by George Orwell, it's not about having something to hide. It's about control. If you let people monitor you, then they have control over what you can and cannot say. IF you start saying things they do not agree with, then they will start making your life hard.

Also check out this essay by a US law professor:
"'I've Got Nothing To Hide' And Other Misunderstandings of Privacy."

Solove explains, "the problem with the nothing to hide argument is with its underlying assumption that privacy is about hiding bad things." He warns, "Agreeing with this assumption concedes far too much ground and leads to an unproductive discussion of information people would likely want or not want to hide." Solove's bottom line is that this argument "myopically views privacy as a form of concealment or secrecy."

In his work, Solove addresses the reality that privacy problems differ: Not all are equal; some are more harmful than others. Most importantly, he writes, "to understand privacy, we must conceptualize it and its value more pluralistically." Through several years of work, Solove has developed a more nuanced concept of privacy that rebuts the idea that there is a "one-size-fits-all conception of privacy."

The concept of "privacy" encompasses many ideas relating to the proper and improper use and abuse of information about people within society. Privacy protects information not only because it would cause others to think less of the person at issue, but also simply to give us all breathing room: "Society involves a great deal of friction," Solove writes, "and we are constantly clashing with each other. Part of what makes a society a good place in which to live is the extent to which it allows people freedom from the intrusiveness of others. A society without privacy protection would be suffocation, and it might not be a place in which most would want to live."

[Level]

Originally Posted by StrongMinded

Stupid example: Let´s say that you play counter strike or whatever and send an email to a friend: We sucked at killing those guys yesterday and that´s why the bomb exploded.. Lets try again... The words killing and bomb can be trigger words in the computer and suddenly they are observing you.

insert there words like "n00b", "own3d", "lol", "lmao", "rofl" etc

Terrorist do not use them. Imagine one of their leaders talking to camera:
"I PWN3D you Bush"

[Etopia]

Originally Posted by burnsey

Have you read 1984 by George Orwell, it's not about having something to hide. It's about control. If you let people monitor you, then they have control over what you can and cannot say. IF you start saying things they do not agree with, then they will start making your life hard.

again , problem is not the monitor , but those that will use it , and they will do with it...
When you vote , choise the right side ...

It still make me laught that people think their gouvernement dont monitor their communication because of som kind of law...
It did happen in france , many people has been monitored , even if its total against law... but they just have labbel it " secret , country protection" ...
It same in england , we wont speak about USA , since they monitor the whole planet and even decrypt protected industrial comunication to give advantage to their own compagnie...

BTW , is there a law on encryption in sweden ?
What kind of encryption you can use ?
Because from what i know , in many country , if you use too hight encryption system ,(even is you encrypt you personal diary) , you may finish in jail for action against your country and piracy.

Private system mean shit on internet.what keep your privacy is the amount of information .. not that the law say they can or not monitor...
how many zillion people write the word "killer , murder , terorist" evryday on internet .... so far i havent read about a inocent guy who got his house burned buy USA squad because they thought he was hussama ben laden.

but look on that forum for exemple ... many people dont post this or that , because they are afraid MA may read what they say , and reduce their loot.I dont think MA carre so much what ramdom joe will post ... and so far , with all the shit i said , i still can logg in.
Problem is not the monitor , problem is lack of balls.

[StrongMinded]

Originally Posted by Etopia

again , problem is not the monitor , but those that will use it , and they will do with it...
When you vote , choise the right side ...

It still make me laught that people think their gouvernement dont monitor their communication because of som kind of law...
It did happen in france , many people has been monitored , even if its total against law... but they just have labbel it " secret , country protection" ...
It same in england , we wont speak about USA , since they monitor the whole planet and even decrypt protected industrial comunication to give advantage to their own compagnie...

BTW , is there a law on encryption in sweden ?
What kind of encryption you can use ?
Because from what i know , in many country , if you use too hight encryption system ,(even is you encrypt you personal diary) , you may finish in jail for action against your country and piracy.

Private system mean shit on internet.what keep your privacy is the amount of information .. not that the law say they can or not monitor...
how many zillion people write the word "killer , murder , terorist" evryday on internet .... so far i havent read about a inocent guy who got his house burned buy USA squad because they thought he was hussama ben laden.

but look on that forum for exemple ... many people dont post this or that , because they are afraid MA may read what they say , and reduce their loot.I dont think MA carre so much what ramdom joe will post ... and so far , with all the shit i said , i still can logg in.
Problem is not the monitor , problem is lack of balls.

I think that you are allowed to encrypt and i know many people are starting to use TOR etc. If the police want to see your encrypted emails etc. and you don´t give out the key, u might get locked up in jail... Not 100% sure on this yet..

[Dreamdancer]

Originally Posted by StrongMinded

I think that you are allowed to encrypt and i know many people are starting to use TOR etc. If the police want to see your encrypted emails etc. and you don´t give out the key, u might get locked up in jail... Not 100% sure on this yet..

Check out Plausible Deniability.

Regards,
DD

[Dreamdancer]

Originally Posted by Etopia

but look on that forum for exemple ... many people dont post this or that , because they are afraid MA may read what they say , and reduce their loot.I dont think MA carre so much what ramdom joe will post ... and so far , with all the shit i said , i still can logg in.
Problem is not the monitor , problem is lack of balls.

Balls... haha.

First off, I believe you should reread what burnsey quoted, and understand it, lest I have to review my impression of your mental powers, which would be sad.

With secret services and the military monitoring comm, it is completely different. This is not stuff a government would admit, let alone use in legal prosecution. This is the stuff from the spy books, and the game only works that way, as long as there is religious belief in this world.

This is NOT about people trying to hide bad things. This is about what you just wrote about this forum. "Telling it like it is" is the stuff people will be prosecuted for. Being monitored by the executive powers means that people will change the way they communicate. Free expression will be no longer possible for a great portion of the european people with this law.
I am not talking about big-mighty-balled Etopia, oblivious to all around him, hardcore freethinker and tellerlikeitis on EF. Of course, YOU won't be influenced by the fact that little old tiny DD, who knows a lot about networks and communications, could actually FABRICATE incriminating evidence into the Email you send?!? Just for fun? Just because he does not like the careless way you talk about surveillance? Attaching the newest Madonna song to one of your emails is rather easy with a little work, and I am not the government.

I can say that I will be influenced, because I have a life besides EU, I have a wife and children I have to care for, I have a job I love. Thus, I cannot communicate freely anymore, I will not be able to say that you french voted a womanizing populist into office, and we germans voted a populist woman, in fear of being flagged as a potential trouble source.

Have you ever in your life thought about that what might be vanilla free speech in your country today might be a penal offense tomorrow? Especially with the majority of the population being completely apolitical in mindset?

Regards, and I really hope you wake up,
DD

Edit: This was a long rant, but I could have said: With ubiquitous surveillance, newspeak is just around the corner.

[gwit]

Dont you just love the "do you have something illegal to hide " argument. Well actually no, but why should I let a governement have full unfettered access to my communications which they can use on me in the future for any new legisaltion they may bring forward which has retrospective effect.

Governements are not appointed to snoop on the population and to "protect" us from crimes of the mind, they are appointed because we feel that we need to be ruled governed and taxed.

We really must not let these rules go any further - you really never know how they will extend the powers or indeed why. Imagine if a power less than 50 years ago, voted in by the people had access to this information - what would have happened.

No you are right a western govenrment voted in by the people would never abuse this authority !!

[burnsey]

Obviously Dreamdancer gets it, +Double plus good man!

Self censorship out of respect is one thing. Self censorship in fear of retaliation is another. It limits the discourse and thought that is allow. It also limits the viewpoints that are expressed. Over time the sum of the fears will grow until one day, you won't have any freedoms that you thought you used to have.

It doesn't happen all of the sudden, but over time and slowly your rights are being taken away. Like they say about a frog in the pot, he doesn't notice the water getting warmer and warmer until it reaches the boiling point and by then it's too late for him.

If you think that there's nothing to worry about, just look to the US. S1959, the Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act of 2007

From wikipedia:

One is the perceived overly broad and vague definitions of "force", “home grown terrorism” and “violent radicalization” (section 899A). Critics charge that the vagueness in these definitions would permit the government to classify many types of venerated American political activity, such as civil disobedience, as terrorism. Critics frequently cite Section 899A which reads, in part: "The use, planned use, or threatened use, of force ...to coerce the ..government, (or) civilian population ..in furtherance of political or social objectives",[18] as particularly problematic. They argue that major societal reforms which are now accepted but were perceived at the time as threatening to the government, such as civil rights, suffrage, and others, would be classified as terrorism. [19][20][21][22]

Another source of concerns centers around a series of “Congressional findings” (Section 899B) from a House Subcommittee held on November 6, 2007 and chaired by Rep. Jane Harman, the bill's sponsor.[23] The Subcommittee heard testimony which equated the 9/11 "truth movement" with terrorist propaganda [24] and the committee's findings specify, among other things, that terrorism exists in the United States and poses a threat to homeland security, (item 2), that the Internet has aided in facilitating home grown terrorism (item 3) and that preventing home grown terrorism cannot be accomplished through traditional law enforcement efforts. (item 6).

[predden]

Originally Posted by Etopia

again , problem is not the monitor , but those that will use it , and they will do with it...
When you vote , choise the right side ...

It still make me laught that people think their gouvernement dont monitor their communication because of som kind of law...
It did happen in france , many people has been monitored , even if its total against law... but they just have labbel it " secret , country protection" ...
It same in england , we wont speak about USA , since they monitor the whole planet and even decrypt protected industrial comunication to give advantage to their own compagnie...

BTW , is there a law on encryption in sweden ?
What kind of encryption you can use ?
Because from what i know , in many country , if you use too hight encryption system ,(even is you encrypt you personal diary) , you may finish in jail for action against your country and piracy.

Private system mean shit on internet.what keep your privacy is the amount of information .. not that the law say they can or not monitor...
how many zillion people write the word "killer , murder , terorist" evryday on internet .... so far i havent read about a inocent guy who got his house burned buy USA squad because they thought he was hussama ben laden.

but look on that forum for exemple ... many people dont post this or that , because they are afraid MA may read what they say , and reduce their loot.I dont think MA carre so much what ramdom joe will post ... and so far , with all the shit i said , i still can logg in.
Problem is not the monitor , problem is lack of balls.

You can use what ever encryption you like in Sweden..

There are a few Swedish ISP and telecom companies that wont let FRA in to their network, they are waiting for the ruling in European court before they give up, other threaten with total encryption of all communication in their nets. The government now say that this law is to spy on Russia…. Pleeeeeeeeeease no offence but it was a long time ago ppl was afraid of the big bad Russians. And there is no way in hell that this law will stop any terror attacks on Sweden, if there even is a threat… and even if there was one what the hell could Sweden do about it? Hit the terrorist wit a shovel as the government almost scraped the army and airforce, not to mention the so called police force we got.. lol they couldn’t even find their own ass with both hands and a flashlight even less find a terrorist planning to act against targets in Sweden...

What the stupid Swedish government doesn’t realize is that lots of non Swedish IT companies is now thinking of leaving or not starting to do planned business with Swedish companies. This will in the long term be a even larger issue other than the UN convention on human rights or the law protecting sources revealing information to the media. The Swedish telecom industry does lots of storage hosting, email-systems and such for companies in other countries. Norway and Finland is 2 of the largest. The Norwegian organisation IKT-Norge is requesting that the government and companies in Norway stop using Swedish data storage services and email systems. One of the largest IT provider in Finland is currently moving all their email and storage back to Finland as it is against the law in Finland to let other governments to spy on Finish email communication. This will also affect the Swedish telecom companies with branches in the other Nordic countries.

and this “I don’t have anything to hide” policy some stupid ppl use are just making me laugh..
the next step is to let the police do a search and seizure in youre home every day even if you are not a suspect, they are doing it right now to all youre communication... everybody got something to hide.. that’s just how it is.. even if its not any criminal activity ppl don’t want everything hung out in the open..

and with FRA´s record of not even manage to keep their own internal secure communication secret without leaking it to the media. I don’t see how they will keep the information they will get their hands on will be any more safe. Criminal organisations will in the long run be able to threaten ppl working at FRA for information, there will always be the risk of insider trading, secure company information will leak to competitors, other Swedish authority could get information from FRA that they wouldn’t be able to get their hands on otherwise. FRA has sold information to other countries in the past such as USA, UK, France, Germany and other… and with the almost neonazi anti piracy organisations in the US we will all be in deep shit if we cant stop this stupid law. This is the “IB affär” all over again only worse. 90% of the Swedish ppl and almost every IT company want to kill this law so I cant see how the current government could keep it… it would be political suicide...
the problem is that 80% of the ppl in sweden are to damn lame to do something about it.
Im almost ashame to be swedish.

This post has been forwarded to Ingvar Åkesson@FRA just to keep the bastard bussy