Do you believe in reality?

[Teilk]

1. Yes

3. Yes.


Also, in the immortal words of a good dead friend:
"Reality is for people that can't handle drugs"

[BlackMagicWoman]

Originally Posted by Joser

Ok. Anyone else major in philosophy?



I think the hardest thing about philosophy is the argumentative aspect. It's far too easy to find holes in someone else's argument, and, essentially, rip their argument to shreds. The hardest thing to do is build your own, solid argument. A perfect argument has yet to be made.

It is very true that is very easy to find holes in other people's theories and find their weak arguments, however, this is a good thing, at least we can prove something wrong Something such as a perfect argument couldnt exist IMO, but there is an example close to it.
There is the solipsist theory that cannot be proven false. "I exist and everything else is only a product of my own mind's fantasies".
Anyway, Kubiny was very right. Dont just "believe" Descartes when he says his logical chain "Dubito, eorgo cogito, Cogito, ergo sum, Sum ergo Deus est, Deus est ergo Mundus est". He was assuming things to be true, things that are still in debate.
He was starting from the premise that the mind exists independant of the brain and in duality (mind/body duality). We still cant figure out if our minds are identical with our brain or not. And we also dont know if there is a "methaphysical" realm

[Joser]

Originally Posted by BlackMagicWoman

It is very true that is very easy to find holes in other people's theories and find their weak arguments, however, this is a good thing, at least we can prove something wrong Something such as a perfect argument couldnt exist IMO, but there is an example close to it.
There is the solipsist theory that cannot be proven false. "I exist and everything else is only a product of my own mind's fantasies".
Anyway, Kubiny was very right. Dont just "believe" Descartes when he says his logical chain "Dubito, eorgo cogito, Cogito, ergo sum, Sum ergo Deus est, Deus est ergo Mundus est". He was assuming things to be true, things that are still in debate.
He was starting from the premise that the mind exists independant of the brain and in duality (mind/body duality). We still cant figure out if our minds are identical with our brain or not. And we also dont know if there is a "methaphysical" realm

mind/body duality isn't equal to "I think, therefore I am." Those are two entirely separate arguments.

"I exist and everything else is only a product of my own mind's fantasies." Interesting. How do you know for sure that it's your mind's fantasies? How can you know that it's not something else feeding these "illusions?" That in itself invalidates that argument.


edit: I don't believe physicality to be necessary for "existence" in any way. I've already discussed the fact that I don't know my true form of existence. I just know that I think. That means I exist (although not certain of the terms of existence.)

[LarsMac]

Originally Posted by KUBINY

thank you all very much! now i have enough answers from "virtual beings", but answer and discuss on if you please, i love to see the topic develop. I can see that many here take what Descartes said very seriously. But remember - he was only man and he would be wrong. If you believe what he says, you could be wrong as well. Anybody and everything could be wrong!

I don't know if I would go so far as to say he was wrong, but I venture that he was not entirely correct.
We think we are, and therefore take faith that we exist, but much what we do in life, is basically our attempts to prove that we do in fact exist.

[MistyDawn]

Originally Posted by BlackMagicWoman

are you a solipsist?

huh?

Originally Posted by BlackMagicWoman

There is the solipsist theory that cannot be proven false. "I exist and everything else is only a product of my own mind's fantasies".

oh, yeah, I guess so then.

I'm glad I dreamt you up to explain that new word I made up but didn't understand...

or...maybe I'm the product of someone elses dynamic fantasy, but then that would mean we all are and not just me alone.....

hey, perhaps we're all avatars in a huge dynamic MMORPG set somewhere in time/space that we have no comprehension of. Presuming of course that there is time/space as we see it.....

maybe we are avatars in a hugely advanced Entropia Universe, lol but not made by MA ofc

geez, it could even be that everything is Matrixified!

omg, my brain is hurting, gonna have a beer and watch TV, that usually stops my thinking for a while

[LarsMac]

Originally Posted by MistyDawn

huh?

...

omg, my brain is hurting, gonna have a beer and watch TV, that usually stops my thinking for a while

That's the spirit. I think you are on to something.
Would +rep, but I guess that's not allowed in this kind of thread.

[mohsinali410]

1. Yes because it exists in my mind
2. Yes because I exist in my mind and other people's minds
3. Yes because I exist in mine and other people's minds. Also, if I don't exist in your mind yet, I can be detected by senses
4. Yes because I have... lol
5. I don't know because I haven't experienced death

[KUBINY]

surprisingly i found out i did still not contribute to the theme, hence observe:

I do not believe in reality (nor the world around me, nor do i believe in my own existence) since the day i tried to claim my existence by logical arguments infront of my own self and failed. Some would probably killed themselves in my situation (the more brave ones), but i just shifted my view of the world and my brain. Still, i feel to be bound to some morales and etiquette (another sign of my weakness). I (with no shame) must say that the only idol i have in my life is Charles Bukowski. The guy that pisses into your book instead of giving you an autograph!!! now thats my goal!
And a couple of weeks ago i found out that life is a mere pause between non-existence, not anything to hold on to for long. So much for death.
And dont you quote me any existencionalistic philosopher that claims otherwise, since those are mere men as well as my- or thy-selves!

so farewell and dont you eat up your mommas!

[BlackMagicWoman]

Originally Posted by MistyDawn

huh?




oh, yeah, I guess so then.

I'm glad I dreamt you up to explain that new word I made up but didn't understand...

or...maybe I'm the product of someone elses dynamic fantasy, but then that would mean we all are and not just me alone.....

hey, perhaps we're all avatars in a huge dynamic MMORPG set somewhere in time/space that we have no comprehension of. Presuming of course that there is time/space as we see it.....

maybe we are avatars in a hugely advanced Entropia Universe, lol but not made by MA ofc

geez, it could even be that everything is Matrixified!

omg, my brain is hurting, gonna have a beer and watch TV, that usually stops my thinking for a while

I really was only joking when I asked you if you were one, Misty.
Everything you said there is POSSIBLE because we cant prove our reality and the world around us.
A very interesting movie that in a way, discusses this topic is "Waking Life", if you havent seen it, I recommend it to watch it when you have that beer. Speaking of which, very good idea, gonna get myself one too

[BlackMagicWoman]

Originally Posted by Joser

mind/body duality isn't equal to "I think, therefore I am." Those are two entirely separate arguments.

You are right, but they are not arguments (at least one of them is not), they are premises. I said that Descartes was an idealist philosopher that "believed" in the duality mind/body and that is what he built up his philosophy on.

Originally Posted by Joser

"I exist and everything else is only a product of my own mind's fantasies." Interesting. How do you know for sure that it's your mind's fantasies? How can you know that it's not something else feeding these "illusions?" That in itself invalidates that argument.

That's the thing: you DONT know for sure. It is just a premise like any other. The only problem is that you cant prove it false And we live in a world where "you are inocent until proven guilty". As long as the solipsist theory cant be proven false, it can always be considered to be a valid one. This is how things work in philosophy: something stands until it is demolished with contra-arguments.

Originally Posted by Joser

edit: I don't believe physicality to be necessary for "existence" in any way. I've already discussed the fact that I don't know my true form of existence. I just know that I think. That means I exist (although not certain of the terms of existence.)

Not necesarilly And I am not saying this only for the sake of contradicting you. Honeslty, I am a fan of the cartesian philosophy and that "Cogito ergo sum" appeared briiliant to me. But its not that simple.
If you think more deeply, what is that Descartes implies here? That, you can only be sure of your internal activities, such as thinking, wanting, doubting etc. And that gives you the impression that you exist. I make a little introspection and I realise that I think, therefore I must be, because if I wouldnt be, I wouldnt be able to do that. But who is the I that "I am thinking" ? And here the problem starts to relate to that dualistic theory (mind/body).
Our body is composed by tons of cells, each with its own life, and they are changing once at 7 years, yet we still are the same and act as a single entity (at least we have that illusion). We still talk about an I that exists and it has the illusion that is constant when the fact is that we are changing everyday.
What if the I, in "I think therefore I am" is only an echo of a multitude other egos in a certain process that we mistake to be thinking?
There are quite a big number of other contra-arguments to Descartes's cogito and I didnt mention them here as official ones because you guys can always use wiki and see for yourself. An autodidact is the real educated person in my eyes.
Here is only what I thought for myself, I try to think something else too so dont consider my adding to this topic as something that I claim to be letter of the law, but only a little humble oppinion that is waiting for others to contradict and debate