Is Computer a useless skill?

[wizzszz]

Originally Posted by andyzammy

its true you will gain them additionally, but its not true that you will lose them. you cannot lose gain oppertunities.. they're like the monster in ur wardrobe.. always there.

Not sure what you're talking about, spending 1000 ped on melee would have gained you some i.e. Serendipity (once unlocked), if you don't have that skill yet, the Seren gains will be lost.

Originally Posted by itree

Actually, if I understand Doer's scanning experiment correctly, unlocked skills are not "on top off" but really do "water down" the gains from the other skills. If you do not have all the unlocks yet, such that you can only gain in 86% of the skills, you get about 116% volume in those skills to compensate.

Originally Posted by Doer

Therefore, any unlocks would indeed "water down" the previous gains in the primary skills.

Actually, there is no watering down in the absolute amount of skills gained, your interpretation is based on relative skill gains, thus wrong.
Either my math fails me completely, or you gain only a certain % of the possible skills before you unlock, so the absolute amount of skills gains is stable!
(You actually gain all contributing skills, in exactly the contributing ratio, skills you haven't unlocked are simply lost, once unlocked, it will give you those gains, but that doesn't change anything on the distribution of the other skill gains!)

Originally Posted by Immortal

This is the first step in wrongness. For use as a guide only.

Whoah, are you kidding?
As for the skill contributions, the percentages there were taken from jimmy B. thread here, i've updated them myself and maintain quite a few pages there along with many others at least once a week, you better back this up or STFU!

[Doer]

Originally Posted by wizzszz

Not sure what you're talking about, spending 1000 ped on melee would have gained you some i.e. Serendipity (once unlocked), if you don't have that skill yet, the Seren gains will be lost.

Actually, there is no watering down in the absolute amount of skills gained, your interpretation is based on relative skill gains, thus wrong.
Either my math fails me completely, or you gain only a certain % of the possible skills before you unlock, so the absolute amount of skills gains is stable!
(You actually gain all contributing skills, in exactly the contributing ratio, skills you haven't unlocked are simply lost, once unlocked, it will give you those gains, but that doesn't change anything on the distribution of the other skill gains!)

While that's possible, it doesn't have to be the way it works. Are you basing these statements on data? The best way to show this would be a large amount of consistent hunts before and after an unlock with of a skill a significant contribution. If the skill volume gain after the unlock increases proportional to the contribution of that skill, it would seem to work as you say.

[PrinceYumil]

Originally Posted by Immortal

This is the first step in wrongness. For use as a guide only.

It's the exact same as Jimmy B's thread about skills contributing to professions. The crafting professions have all been solved (other than the recently added Materails one) and Computer does not contribute to them. I'm not sure what you're trying to imply with this comment. Other than adding health, no skill to my knowledge has been proven to have any intrinsic value other than increasing your professional level, and the singular significance of professional levels (except maybe Evader and a couple obscure ones) is allowing one to use certain items at their maximum power and efficiency. So I'd appreciate if you could clarify the "wrongness" you speak of.

[Vedder]

Imo those 5% matters. too much to chip them out. (I'm not a miner though)

But I'll certainly agree that it's not the most important skill in EU

[wizzszz]

Originally Posted by PrinceYumil

Other than adding health, no skill to my knowledge has been proven to have any intrinsic value other than increasing your professional level, and the singular significance of professional levels (except maybe Evader and a couple obscure ones) is allowing one to use certain items at their maximum power and efficiency.

Well, a soc mate finds oil on a regular basis, where i find devils tail and henren stems instead (better finders only increase the odds to find them), dropped quite some K probes in that area, so i can definitely say oil replaces stuff you can't find at a certain level.

So yes, other skills do have a meaning, not sure if it's the surveyor pro standing (which isn't much higher), or some of the other skills (i'm mostly an ore miner, so might be the way higher geo/cga as well)

Originally Posted by Doer

While that's possible, it doesn't have to be the way it works. Are you basing these statements on data?

I did a lot of tests, but unfortunately, i don't have them all nicely sorted in a single file, some test results are from a soc mate...

But even if you ignore the tests:
Coding a distribution for every single unlock profile seems way more effort and way less reasonable than to just ignore the "locked" skillgains.
And within a certain boundaries of deviation, the average skill gains remain constant (measured in TT ESI) after unlocks.

[Doer]

Originally Posted by wizzszz

Coding a distribution for every single unlock profile seems way more effort and way less reasonable than to just ignore the "locked" skillgains.
And within a certain boundaries of deviation, the average skill gains remain constant (measured in TT ESI) after unlocks.

That last sentence seems to contradict your initial point, unless you mean that unlocks make up a limited percentage of the total, so the change in skill volume in the course of unlocking is small.

I understand and agree with your point about the simplicity of coding it that way, but it does seem rather harsh on all of us who haven't unlocked everything.

[wizzszz]

Originally Posted by Doer

That last sentence seems to contradict your initial point, unless you mean that unlocks make up a limited percentage of the total, so the change in skill volume in the course of unlocking is small.

Sorry, i don't see the contradiction, maybe i malformed my sentence:
There are ofc some deviations, just as in throwing a dice only a couple of times, however, the Law of large numbers applies (deviations seem to be caused by timing, from my observations, skills gains come in waves, just as globals)

Originally Posted by Doer

I understand and agree with your point about the simplicity of coding it that way, but it does seem rather harsh on all of us who haven't unlocked everything.

Isn't that typical MA style anyway?

[Doer]

Originally Posted by wizzszz

Sorry, i don't see the contradiction, maybe i malformed my sentence:
There are ofc some deviations, just as in throwing a dice only a couple of times, however, the Law of large numbers applies (deviations seem to be caused by timing, from my observations, skills gains come in waves, just as globals)

If gains before an unlock are just discarded, the overall volume gain after an unlock should go up by the percent contribution of the unlocked skill/current total contribution of skills to that profession.

Were you saying that once a skill is unlocked, the volume gain in the profession per activity is constant? Ie it doesn't slow down as the skill goes up.

Isn't that typical MA style anyway?

*sigh*

[wizzszz]

Originally Posted by Doer

If gains before an unlock are just discarded, the overall volume gain after an unlock should go up by the percent contribution of the unlocked skill/current total contribution of skills to that profession.

Were you saying that once a skill is unlocked, the volume gain in the profession per activity is constant? Ie it doesn't slow down as the skill goes up.

It is constant per skill (no matter which unlocks you've obtained), the overall gain volume increases with every unlock.

[Doer]

Originally Posted by wizzszz

It is constant per skill (no matter which unlocks you've obtained), the overall gain volume increases with every unlock.

Ok, thanks for clarifying. I will see if i can pull out enough tantillion run data before and after Combat Sense to verify your results. If I had them from before and after MMS it would be a lot more useful, though.