Impact on health of chipping skills

[wizzszz]

Originally Posted by Doer

No, it only excludes skills not over 1.0 so that isn't a problem. The problem is people uploading incomplete sets or doing it by hand, which is obviously not going to be as precise.

Jdegre could include i.e. a MD5 checksum in the skills file, to make sure they are unaltered.
If someone edits the file by hand (i.e. because of scanning errors), it will be marked as changed on upload, and therefore useless for your calculations...

Well, just a thought, i think we'll get it nailed down this time with a shared effort, now that we have the detailed health. If we have the contribution of the skills as exact as possible, it will be no problem to find the contribution of the attributes.

Originally Posted by Doer

124. Each bar (light green, dark green, light green...) is a single pixel in width.

Is that the full length of the bar? It seems to start off with a few pixels already. But iirc thats exactly the length of the "old style" progress bars.

If you assume +/- 2.5 pixels, that would be pretty exactly +/- 0.02 health points, and for the skills, the error is neglectable when the chipping resulted in a change > 500 points.

[Doer]

Originally Posted by wizzszz

Jdegre could include i.e. a MD5 checksum in the skills file, to make sure they are unaltered.
If someone edits the file by hand (i.e. because of scanning errors), it will be marked as changed on upload, and therefore useless for your calculations...

I'm talking about people changing their skills in wiki by hand, as some people do. Not maliciously, just to avoid the hassle of figuring out a skill scanner. That and missing a page when scanning the skills are both very plausible reasons for bad data on wiki.

Another source of trouble in this context is that you can actually deselect the box that updates the health value when you upload skills.

Is that the full length of the bar? It seems to start off with a few pixels already. But iirc thats exactly the length of the "old style" progress bars.

There is an empty pixel (black+faded background color) on either end inside the box, so the total length is 126 pixels, of which only 124 reflect actual active values. The error of missing a single dark bar is fairly negligible -- it's the missing skills that are the problem.

[wizzszz]

Originally Posted by Doer

I'm talking about people changing their skills in wiki by hand, as some people do. Not maliciously, just to avoid the hassle of figuring out a skill scanner. That and missing a page when scanning the skills are both very plausible reasons for bad data on wiki.

I've suggested a "source" column in entropedia (that'll change to "manually" on single changes) in my last posts.

But there is a much more simple solution:
The skill scanner could ask for a direct upload to i.e. jdegre.net directly after scanning.

Or gather some people who are willing to provide the unchanged .csv files for that purpose. I keep backups of mine, although i do not verify the scanned values other than by estimated total skills value.

However, let's see what we can gather here, i.e. the 533.3 for athletics and melee combat listed on entropedia always seemed a bit odd to me, imo a result of neglecting the decimals of health before & after chipping.
(not sure if jdegre uses them in his formula though)

[Doer]

Originally Posted by wizzszz

However, let's see what we can gather here, i.e. the 533.3 for athletics and melee combat listed on entropedia always seemed a bit odd to me, imo a result of neglecting the decimals of health before & after chipping.
(not sure if jdegre uses them in his formula though)

1600/2 = 800
1600/3 = 533.33...
1600/4 = 400
1600/5 = 320
1600/8 = 200

The fact that the 1600-based numbers work so well is why i think it's only in attributes/modifiers and/or base values that we're off.

It's true that the rounding could introduce some error, but that's only on the order of 0.0012 HP/10k skills.

[wizzszz]

Originally Posted by Doer

1600/2 = 800
1600/3 = 533.33...
1600/4 = 400
1600/5 = 320
1600/8 = 200

The fact that the 1600-based numbers work so well is why i think it's only in attributes/modifiers and/or base values that we're off.

It's true that the rounding could introduce some error, but that's only on the order of 0.0012 HP/10k skills.

Well, indeed, never saw 533.33 as 1600/3, as the others are such a nice multiple of 20 Stupid me :P

The rounding was more meant towards full healthpoints, as we had no decimals before.

Well, still it hasn't been possible to nail it completely down so far (and some of the new skills and several unlocks are missing), do you at least get good results with your method when you check only avatars with a stamina of 1?

I played a lot with skill sets i made my on own during the last months (partially taken exactly on a "you've gained additional health" message), and still wasn't able to figure out some good numbers for the attributes, infact it worked a lot better when i changed some of the skill contributions.

You may see it as unnecessary to gather the data again, but additional confirmation with more precision should reveal what went wrong up to now, at least IMO.

[Doer]

Originally Posted by wizzszz

Well, indeed, never saw 533.33 as 1600/3, as the others are such a nice multiple of 20 Stupid me :P

That came from MG Mighty's thread on health, which was the first rational explanation for the skill contributions to health that i saw. Attributes fit in there as well:
1600/40=40

do you at least get good results with your method when you check only avatars with a stamina of 1?

Stamina 9 Avatars (Health, deviation from predicted health)
91 0.66
92 0.22
92 -0.18
95 -0.22
95 0.78
97 -0.65
98 -2.37
99 0.19
100 0.64
102 0.34
102 0.61
102 -0.50
103 -0.14
103 -0.19
104 0.55
105 -0.05
107 0.26
108 -1.04
108 -0.09
110 -0.40
110 -0.25
111 -0.77
111 -0.30
111 0.32
114 0.27
116 -0.28
117 0.54
117 0.54
117 -0.40
121 -0.15
121 -0.31
123 1.12
125 0.35
125 0.54
126 0.41
128 -0.20
129 0.28
130 0.42
131 0.06
133 -0.62
134 -0.64
135 -0.22
136 -0.24
139 0.26
142 -0.22
145 -0.20
149 -0.60
155 0.86
162 0.48
172 0.24
175 -0.24
176 -0.54
176 1.05

Stamina 1 Avatars
89 1.37
90 0.50
92 0.95
97 0.08
100 0.16
105 -0.42
144 0.73


One additional problem is that some of these were probably uploaded before the health was shown to a decimal value, and therefore are off by +-1 anyway.

I played a lot with skill sets i made my on own during the last months (partially taken exactly on a "you've gained additional health" message), and still wasn't able to figure out some good numbers for the attributes, infact it worked a lot better when i changed some of the skill contributions.

My Avatar
143.0 0.60
143.0 0.98
143.0 1.16
143.0 1.28
144.0 0.76
144.0 0.92
144.0 1.04
144.0 1.23
144.0 1.41
145.0 0.47
145.0 0.76
145.0 0.93
145.0 0.99
145.0 1.16
145.0 1.35
145.0 1.46
146.0 0.52
146.0 0.64
146.0 0.76
146.0 0.88
146.0 0.97
147.0 0.96
147.0 1.36
148.0 0.47
148.0 0.61
148.0 0.79
148.0 0.98
148.0 1.07
148.0 1.22
149.0 0.48
149.0 0.54
149.0 0.71
149.0 0.94
149.0 1.13
149.9 0.50
150.2 0.49
150.3 0.49
150.4 0.49
150.5 0.51
150.6 0.51
150.7 0.51
150.8 0.51
150.9 0.51
151.0 0.51
151.1 0.50
151.2 0.50
151.3 0.50
151.4 0.51
151.5 0.52
151.6 0.52
151.7 0.52
151.8 0.52
151.9 0.52
152.0 0.51
152.3 0.51
152.6 0.51
152.7 0.52
155.7 0.54
156.0 0.53
156.1 0.53

I tried playing around with different values back when the 1600-trend was pointed out, both with my skills and some very high avatar skills, and nothing else came close to being as accurate at predicting all the values. As you can see, there's a very gradually increasing error visible since the decimal values of health became available. That becomes more pronounced for very highly skilled avatars. The difference is very subtle, so it's either due to a very slowly increasing skill (ie. not one of the known contributors) or some modifier effect (from an attribute, perhaps -- maybe health itself ). All the known contributors that i have would make too big of a difference if they were off by even a few points.

You may see it as unnecessary to gather the data again, but additional confirmation with more precision should reveal what went wrong up to now, at least IMO.

So it's not that i don't see it as necessary, just as effort better spent eliminating the skills currently not considered to give health and creating a large body of very precise data so that baseline health and more subtle modifiers can be teased out.

Edit: I forgot to reset the base health to the currently used value before i printed out my health values, which is why they're off more than in the previous example i gave.

[Jimmy B]

Well, was going to go to CP for the afternoon but the malls let me down with only 2 out of 7 parts of Serum found.

So did my skills instead. Scanner reads my health as 154.45, Optimiser calculates it as 154.28.

Full list of skills: http://www.entropedia.info/Info.aspx...Avatar&id=2786

[wizzszz]

I've read MG Mighty's thread, i've read almost every post ever made on that topic.

My data are a bit different, as my skills rise, the error (0.25 points less than predicted by the chipping optimizer back then) get smaller as my skills rise.

The 1600 thingie always sounded very plausible, but there is still an error left.
With the old data, we can't be sure if it's not maybe 1610 or 1590.
(The 1600 is a nice number for humans, computers would prefer i.e. 1536 = 0x600)
And, we can't be sure if there aren't other skills that contribute like 1600/0.5 = 1 HP per 3200 or even less, too.
Such small contributions could very well slip through the detection by fapping.

We should generally separate old avatars with a stamina of 9 and newer avatars with a stamina of 1, it's very likely MA was forced to add/take some points of the base health to not change the HPs of older avatars too much on the last skill nerf.

This can only be done if we have the best possible data available, to minimize the error, and i'm pretty confident this thread will help revealing some things we haven't thought of before.

And even if not, it's a good start to gather people working on the health formula again. The effort to maintain this thread is minimal, most of the data will come from people chipping out anyway.

We still have no real good formula, and everytime i get stuck, i return to the start and re-validate the basics, and that's the idea behind this thread.
And i'm sure you'll agree that research on health is kinda "stuck" atm.

[wizzszz]

Originally Posted by Jimmy B

Well, was going to go to CP for the afternoon but the malls let me down with only 2 out of 7 parts of Serum found.

So did my skills instead. Scanner reads my health as 154.45, Optimiser calculates it as 154.28.

Full list of skills: http://www.entropedia.info/Info.aspx...Avatar&id=2786

Did you just reveal your ingame identity?

100 ped and i'll delete the quote