Answer to the monthly "rise the sweat price" thread

[KP708]

Originally Posted by Mega

And I enjoy EU, make no mistake about that - otherwise I wouldnt play it and I wouldnt post on these forums.

Hehe you and me both

Originally Posted by Mega

However, my post youve quoted is really addressing point 2 in Alice's opening post. The fact is that sweat price WAS double what it is now (1.2pec a bottle now its 0.6pec a bottle) and it was as easy to get back then.

The other points I mentioned basically fill in the situation that I believe EU was easier for a new player to get started, and I still do.

Hmm well I thought Alice was kind of saying in point 2 that newbies complaining about it being tougher these days to get started was missing the bigger picture, but maybe I missed the point, and I'm sure she'll say something on that herself, so...

Originally Posted by Mega

This thread is aimed at new players - I dont know how many new players would venture into a lootable PVP zone - I've been here over a year and havent been in PVP3 or 4. The Octagon is scary enough

Yep you're right there. I mean I did go into PVP4 last night which was interesting in itself, and very scary, but only on the way to somewhere else. New players would not venture into lootable PVP as an end in itself.

But I guess I wasn't very clear in what I said with

Originally Posted by KP708

There was no PVP4. .....

You may say 'but they have no relevance or value to a noob'. Not true. They keep the higher level players interested in the game and depositing. If they don't stay playing, where will you sell your sweat? What would happen to the demand for sweat if PKers got bored and stopped playing and hence had no need to TP into PVP areas?

What I meant was that the new features may only be of immediate benefit to mid-higher level players, but it is those mid-higher level players, continuing to play, and wanting ME to TP into PVP, who generate demand for sweat and keep the price up.

Sorry if I didn't express that very clearly the first time round.

[Alice]

Originally Posted by Mega

Amp Nerf (Opalo + A10x) - massive saving in eco

alright, how many newbies at that could afford the 106 amp?

and who used the hilarious high amps on the opalo?

newbies?
or ppl already beyond 3k and more in rifle?

next logical arguement would be the rising price of 101 amps that makes it hard for newbies to get

thats true

use a breer

Originally Posted by Mega

Auction Nerf - any loot you sold cost you 1 ped irrespective of markup

sweat (what the thread is basicially about) can not be auctioned (yet, but i had an interesting thread you saw already too about that)

well, alright
do you auction your oils ?

last time i put in around 200 ped of oils, and the auction fee was 54 pec or so
46 pec cheaper than before
bad for newbies?
ok, the 200 ped of oil is a bit hard, but still

you might even think about auctioning pixie and stuff now, since the auction fee doesn't take the whole gain from it away now

in case of ME ofc the auction fee is pretty steep, around 50 pec (if im not mistaken) more than before
but the BO option usually pays for that

Originally Posted by Mega

Loot Nerf - 80% to 120% returns were my experience. Lots of items too.

got a shitload of shogun pieces i had to tt
but kinda true, i answered that above already

Originally Posted by Mega

Skill Nerf - skills used to rise, and keep rising - without needing to have a SIB.

you dont have to use SIB, actually, you shouldnt if you want to skill eco
the main thing of SIB means that the weapon can be maxed at low skills (especially compared to "normal" weapons)
what makes every newbie who uses a maxed weapon very eco at low skills
even if i had got say 8000-10000 rifle
if i would use a jester d1 I would still be worse than the opalo ^.-

yes, you get skills slower now, but you also don't need then really ^^
not if you go L

Originally Posted by Mega

Also a new player back then could get as much sweat as he can now, but was being paid 1.2pec a bottle. You do remember Camp Phoenix? Healers focusers and you revived about 100m away from the TP.

was the sweat cap still in charge at that time?
i could search it, but don't want to
ah, who cares, if you had made a new ava you could have sweated anyway
(if yes, now you can keep evade skills etc)

i remember camp phoenix, when i started you could use other sweating tactics
i remember that often sweaters waited at the tp til someone lured a mob to them too
i even remember fort troy, with many healers and focussers
and Neas ofc


anyway, if the price was 1.2 that could have several reasons
#1
there were less sweaters/newbies, so less sweat around
might be true since MA has sold several things lately (banks and stuff)

#2
same amount of newbies, but didnt get as many sweat per hour
you name phoenix

how many mobs are around there, sustaining how many newbies?

there are snables, lets be kind and say up to 3 pulls
chickens, up to say 6
corn, around the same
molis, some more, but kinda hard hit

the spawn is quite low, and a dry mob was a dry mob, so had to be killed
you wasted loads of sweating attempts at dry mobs, i bet you can remember that too

so, at phoenix you had to run quite much to get a not dry mob
that mob didnt last that long, due to low amount of pulls
overall, that means you got less sweat per hour imo

edit

i liked PE more
not just due to sweat price, since i was capped i didn't care

but skilling had a meaning, not nowadays

[KeynesAlley]

Originally Posted by Sionkiewicz

This is about sweating and selling sweat. It really has nothing to do with Skills (newbies are not experiencing the NERF on day1 or 2). I also think Alice explained the pricing differences quite well. Your argument is based on a price that was only in existance for 1 week. Normal sweat prices before that were anywhere between 1.2 and 1.5 which places the delta at .7-1. Is this a large difference? To some, yes, but that was a different time with different rules. The CAP was in place and people could not go out and get it themselves. Now there are no restrictions.

Go back and read Point 2 in the OP again.

You just might see why I mentioned those things.

[Mega]

I wont quote your post Alice, or this reply will be huge

Amp
Most people used the Opalo and A102 or A103, they cost TT+1 each - TT+2 on a bad day. Why you brought up the A106 I've no idea - although it did fit onto an Opalo back then and it was as desirable then as it is now as the ultimate in eco.
Opalo + A103 = 20 damage a shot for just over 3 pec.

Auction
I dont auction oils, at 102% I tt them, at 105% I find someone in Twin Peaks who will buy them. Auctioning Pixie isnt great - youll either put it at TT+1 or it wont sell more than likely - I TT a lot of my pixie armor (especially the female) and I'm sure a lot of others do too.

Skill
You didnt need a SIB to get anywhere back then. As has already been said - try getting 6700 longblades now.

Sweat Cap
Sweat cap was removed on July 4th 2006. I expected the price to plumment within days, it reduced slowly over months. The reason it went down so slowly was because sweating was still as boring as it ever was, and hunting paid enough that most people hunted and didnt need to bother with sweating.

Camp Phoenix
I would say there are as many sweaters and newbies back then as there are now. I'd also say youd get 350 bottles an hour at CP same as you would elsewhere. People used to bring the mobs in - not just snables and berys but corns atrox armax molisks etc - great fun. Neas Place is a poor 2nd place to CP in my view for a lot of reasons that I wont go into here.


Skilling does still have a meaning - as I found out when I sold several of my skills last year. If you dont agree - sell some

[Alice]

Originally Posted by KeynesAlley

There is no "might need", it's "will need" more cash, a lot more, to reach 6,700 now. That's not more eco, that's less eco. Of course this does not include the massive increase in playing time to get the skills.

why do you want 6700 longblade skills?
or 6700 rifle skills?

at the moment you play hilarious eco with L

so the skills come "by the way"
you already maxed the weapon (that is what skills are for) at a hilarious low level

if you would bring the arguement that you need the skills to use higher L stuff, it could even work

but, just see the korss 400 with 106 for example
you can take pretty big stuff down with that
why need a bigger gun?

ofc, if you want to take bigger stuff down you need higher armor, which cost some ks

Originally Posted by KeynesAlley

I've only had 1 global since I started 28 March 07. I got a 50 ped loot drop of animal eye oil. Others may have had better or worse luck than me. I have gotten some great stuff, but their value was only a tiny fraction of the full repaired item's TT value.

sec, lemme see
i got around 10 at least

Originally Posted by KeynesAlley

While your current weapon may be slightly less eco than the (L) weapons, you more than make up for it in your ability to get loot that has a huge mark up. This is not possible for newbs and their puny weapons. Newb loot has either a minuscule mark up or no mark up at all. Most Newb loot {there are a few exceptions} is best put in the TT so they don't lose the auction fee, which is usually more than the slight mark up they might get.

last time rocket/grenade launcher was looted by a snable
exas loot vigi stuff
bibos too
chickens loot angel (well, theoretically ), powerful heal chips (i got one that way, so i can confirm that, chicken provi, can be killed with breer m2a kinda easily i guess)

and to the "slightly"
it is 10%
with amp even more, i didnt count with amp since melee cant be amped

Originally Posted by KeynesAlley

Non depositors have to be extremely lucky or they have to sweat constantly to support their hunting habit. Just counting ammo, it will take them 3 1/2 hours of sweating to get 1,000 bullets. 1,000 bullets takes very little time to get through. Of course they have to buy all the gear in the first place and then they have the repair bills for any hunting session.

hm
shouldn't it be that way?

that depositing is hard and time consuming, so you are a bit pushed towards depositing and contributing? (don't get this wrong, i have hell of a respect of hardcore sweaters, i sweat a lot myself )

anyway
you wont need armor in the first place
not even a fap

a snable will barely reach you if you use an opalo

Originally Posted by KeynesAlley

You again proved my point. There is less loot now for newbs to get, so you had it better when you started. Less loot means higher mark ups on the non newb loot so it costs more for newbs to advance and less return for a newb's hunting session. The people who benefit are those that got the dirt cheap skills before VU 8.8 about 1 Jan 07.

if i take the text above, your point is
"rise the sweat price to 10 pec per bottles, so everyone can sweat 1 hour to hunt for ages"


just say i would pay 10 pec per bottles to all the sweaters
they go hunt, and get loot

who gets suddenly a bigger share of the cake?
depositers who contributed, or the one who didnt?

for whom does that means lower loot?

---

all that eco discussions means
that you can kill more stuff for the same amount of cash

there more you have killing that eco, the more you share
but in the case of sweaters thats pretty nice, since they are very eco now, so they get more of the share than before

---
to crush my own point

that way the ppl who actually pay are more spread
now you are pushed towards L, else you pay more
even if you use L, the loot tends to be lower
but, is that bad?

now more ppl get "more" of the cake
so, everyone get less
so, everyone has to pay more
so the "cost" are spread more evenly

means, just one extremly eco hunter doesnt get most of it
now he has douzens and houndreds of competitors at far lower skill
so he suddenly has to pay more than before

i heard a lot about bad loot, others say good loot
one disciple of mine is lucky with hunting lately
many break even runs
another one with mining
another one had bad luck over time

besides, some of your points are mainly about "newbies in general" some about "depositing newbies" (and other ppl in general, like the no loot)
some are about "non depositing newbies" (like the low sweat price)
so, what side are you at?

my general point was that newbies HAVE it better now
or in short
should sweating be easy so you can play that easily for free on other ppls expense?
I say no (i will still continue sweating, because its fun)

is it possible at the current price to get some kind of demo, to test some things out?
I say yes, easier than before
-easier and better to handle weapons

-easier and faster to buy fap

-mining tools are easier too, now with SIB even

-some of the new bps from technicians use stuff you get from hunting (if im not mistaken), one BP at auction even just stuff you get from hunting
means its easily available, at pretty cheap prices (not the 110% oil+lyst for filters before)

-to the loot in general
before you got ped, that was tt
now you get oil, that has %
pretty low one, but it has %

if it is worth the auction fee you have to decide for yourself
but at 50 pec auction fee its easier to auction something with 104% markup than on 1 ped

[KeynesAlley]

I'd be more than happy to have all her skills, since they are meaningless to her.

[Mega]

Originally Posted by Alice

why do you want 6700 longblade skills?
or 6700 rifle skills?

Well the 150 hp would be nice (in the case of rifle skills)

[Alice]

Originally Posted by Mega

Amp
Most people used the Opalo and A102 or A103, they cost TT+1 each - TT+2 on a bad day. Why you brought up the A106 I've no idea - although it did fit onto an Opalo back then and it was as desirable then as it is now as the ultimate in eco.
Opalo + A103 = 20 damage a shot for just over 3 pec.

i knew that would come
jep, i remember selling some at tt

there were just 2 problems

first, amps dropped too often (the un L stuff), therefore the low price compared to now
second, it made ppl too eco without using L
MA loves crafters, so you gotta use L, so you gotta get them away from the nasty eco opalo

so, less amp drops and amp nerfs

breer still stays more eco, no?

in any case, you can turn that either towards the non depo newbie, or towards the depo newbie, depending on whom you want to support

Originally Posted by Mega

Auction
I dont auction oils, at 102% I tt them, at 105% I find someone in Twin Peaks who will buy them. Auctioning Pixie isnt great - youll either put it at TT+1 or it wont sell more than likely - I TT a lot of my pixie armor (especially the female) and I'm sure a lot of others do too.

and yes, auctioning pixie isnt nice, nor is selling it at the street
but we speak about the existence here
and 50 pec auction fee makes it interesting to put those low markup stuff into auction

Originally Posted by Mega

Skill
You didnt need a SIB to get anywhere back then. As has already been said - try getting 6700 longblades now.

you dont need 6700 LB now, there are no L weapons at useful prices anyway
so, say, you wont need 6700 rifle now
several nice thingies should be maxed earlier

Originally Posted by Mega

Sweat Cap
Sweat cap was removed on July 4th 2006. I expected the price to plumment within days, it reduced slowly over months. The reason it went down so slowly was because sweating was still as boring as it ever was, and hunting paid enough that most people hunted and didnt need to bother with sweating.

heck, did you mark that day?
my guess would be that more and more who used to buy ME in huge amounts for tping had some left, and after that started more and more sweating lower amounts themselves, since that makes them better off

ofc, several ppl just went on the sweating train also they deposit, i call that hardcore sweaters, i count me to them too

those lower the price in general too usually

Originally Posted by Mega

Camp Phoenix
I would say there are as many sweaters and newbies back then as there are now. I'd also say youd get 350 bottles an hour at CP same as you would elsewhere. People used to bring the mobs in - not just snables and berys but corns atrox armax molisks etc - great fun. Neas Place is a poor 2nd place to CP in my view for a lot of reasons that I wont go into here.

jep, i remember an armax causing havoc once :P
was turreted :/

anyway, for the summary, read post above

ps, i write since at least 40 min replies to that thread :P