Guide: Limited Weapons

[Jimmy B]

How good is my gun?

Introduction

Well, after the nerfing of the Sollomate Opalo many of us have had to change weapons. It was my original plan to make use of my 12000 combined rifle+lwt skills and buy a big(ish) laser rifle and kick some ass! But a trial run for a couple of weeks with a Justifier Mk II aborted that plan before it began! OK it took a bit of getting used to some of the other changes, such as animal oils in loot, but on the whole I was just losing too much PED to be able to justify buying an even bigger non-SIB weapon and risk losing even more PED.

The fact is, with a non-SIB weapon I still only have 4.3 HA so I'm missing quite a lot compared to maxed out weapons, and I have about 34% min dmg so I'm getting an average of 67% max per shot rather than 75% max (which is over 10% worse). I reckon the combination of those slashes my economy on that gun (amped) from 4.25 dmg/pec down to about 3.18 dmg/pec. And, worse, I don't even get the dmg/sec I'm expecting (due to the misses and the worse damage range).

So, after a bit of grumbling about paying markup for weapons that were worse than my old Opalo+A106 combination it was time to set about trying out some of the new limitted weapons. However, the problem is that there are a lot of weapons to choose from, sometimes the stats are not readily available anywhere yet, and even if the stats are available they are skewed by the varying markups on the weapons anyway. Hmmm, OK, time to do some calculations then!

What do I need to know?

Personally, I want to find out the dmg/sec, the dmg/pec and the range that my weapon provides. To work these out we need the following variables:

tt - the tt value of the gun that I'm going to get
ftt - the maximum possible full tt value of the gun
Markup - the markup being offered
Dmg - the damage the gun will provide with the amp I intend to use
Shots - the shots per minute the gun can find
AmmoDecay - the amount of ammo used per shot (gun & amp)
AmpDecay - the amount of pec the amp decays per shot
GunDecay - the amount of pec the gun decays per shot
Range - the range of the gun

How do I find out these things?

All of these quantities should be immediately apparent from looking at the weapon details, apart from the decay. For the purposes of amps I'm assuming old amps are used so the decay can be found at a site like http://www.pe-wiki.info. The method and calculation outlined below can be fairly easily adapted to cater for the new limited amps.

You may also be able to find the decay of the gun too. If you can't, or the data is unreliable, you need to get hold of one of the guns. A low tt one will do - you just need to be able to fire one shot!

Once you have the gun you just need to calculate the tt of the gun before the shot and subtract the tt of the gun after the shot. To find the tt of an item you need to put it into the tt machine (don't sell!) and add common dung until the displayed tt increases by 0.01 PED. You then need to subtract 0.005 PED from the value showing and further subtract (number of common dung * 0.00001) PED. The result will give you the correct tt of the item to within 0.001 PEC. You'll need to do this before firing the gun and then also afterwards. Subtract the two results and multiply by 100 to find the decay in PEC.

An alternative, easier method involves using the auction (thanks to Kolobok for the suggestion):

To measure a gun's TT value, put the gun into the selling window in the auction, and assign it very high buyout, say +1000000 (don't actually sell the gun, just note it's percentage and then cancel). The ratio of the buyout value and the percentage, multiplied by 100, yields the precise TT value of the gun. Repeat the process after firing one shot and subtract the two results.

How do I calculate the dmg/sec?

The damage rate is fairly easy to calculate. You need to use the following formula:

dmg/sec = Damage * Shots / 60

Examples:

Sollomate Opalo + A101...8.1 dmg/sec
Breer M2a + A102............14.7 dmg/sec
Breer M3a + A102............14.9 dmg/sec
Sollomate Opalo + A106...19.1 dmg/sec (comparison only)
Svempa S60....................22.7 dmg/sec
Riker UL3 + A105..............28.0 dmg/sec
Korss H400 + A106...........52.3 dmg/sec
Breer P4a + A104.............33.6 dmg/sec
Breer P5a + A106.............51.3 dmg/sec

Effective Markup

The effective markup is calculated based on the markup, the tt value and the full tt value. It is needed in order to take into account the fact that 3% of the gun cannot be used. If you're feeling lazy you can just use the markup instead but be aware that for already quite damaged guns this will mean your economy is a little worse than you've calculated.

To calculate the Effective Markup use the following formula:

EffMarkup = (Markup * tt - 0.03 * ftt) / (tt - 0.03 * ftt)

OK, so what is my economy then?

Finally! The big question! The overall economy of the gun & amp is calculated by the following formula:

dmg/pec = Damage / (AmmoDecay + AmpDecay + EffMarkup * GunDecay)

Examples (tt is assumed to be full unless stated, percentages give = Markup):

Sollomate Opalo + A101...4.11 dmg/pec
Sollomate Opalo + A106...4.39 dmg/pec (comparison only )
Range = 55.0

Breer M2a + A102, 100%...4.25 dmg/pec
Breer M2a + A102, 113%...4.19 dmg/pec
Breer M2a + A102, 161%...4.00 dmg/pec
GunDecay = 0.598, ftt = 39, Range = 60.5

Breer M3a + A102, 100%...4.24 dmg/pec
Breer M3a + A102, 122%...4.11 dmg/pec
Breer M3a + A102, 144%...4.00 dmg/pec
GunDecay = 0.845, ftt = 43.5, Range = 62.7

Korss H400 + A106, 100%............4.29 dmg/pec
Korss H400 + A106, 200%............3.99 dmg/pec
Korss H400 + A106, 200% tt=40...3.96 dmg/pec
GunDecay = 0.920, ftt = 177, Range = 35.2

Riker UL3 + A105, 100%............4.25 dmg/pec
Riker UL3 + A105, 150%............3.93 dmg/pec
Riker UL3 + A105, 200%............3.65 dmg/pec
Riker UL3 + A105, 200% tt=40...3.61 dmg/pec
GunDecay = 1.817, ftt = 135, Range = 62.7

Svempa S60, 100%...4.12 dmg/pec
Svempa S60, 124%...3.98 dmg/pec
GunDecay = 1.025, ftt = 90, Range = 26.4

Breer P4a + A104, 100%...4.28 dmg/pec
Breer P4a + A104, 140%...4.15 dmg/pec
Breer P4a + A104, 180%...4.02 dmg/pec
GunDecay = 0.766, ftt = 188, Range = 25.3

Breer P5a + A106, 100%...4.26 dmg/pec
Breer P5a + A106, 150%...4.12 dmg/pec
Breer P5a + A106, 200%...3.98 dmg/pec
GunDecay = 0.939, ftt = 222.1, Range = 33

Comparison with non-SIB weapons

As you skill up, non-SIB guns will become more economical. In order to compare SIB and non-SIB guns we need to consider how much we miss and what our damage range is (for maxed out SIB guns our stats are the same for all guns in this regard so we didn't need to consider it previously).

Min damage %: Take the dmg/sec and dmg/pec figures and multiply them by (1+Min damage %)/2 in order to take into account the fact that you do not hit the max damage each time. For maxed out SIB guns you will be multiplying by 0.75, for non-SIB guns by a slightly lower amount.

Hit Ability: It has been suggested that avatars with HA=10 on a gun miss about 8% of their shots, whilst avatars with HA=0 on a gun miss about 20% of their shots, with a linear progression in between. Whilst I don't think this tells the whole story, its as good an estimate as I have so I'll use it.

To take into account the fact that some shots miss, multiply your dmg/sec and dmg/pec figures by 0.8+0.012*HA.

Examples (with professions Laser Sniper=43, Ranged Laser=40):

Korss H400 + A106...200%......2.75 dmg/pec, 36.1 dmg/sec
Imk2 unamped.........non-SIB...2.71 dmg/pec, 41.4 dmg/sec
mk2 + A106..............non-SIB...2.44 dmg/pec, 23.4 dmg/sec

Calculation Tools

There's quite a few webpages out there that offer the ability to perform these types of calculations for you. I always think its worth knowing how to perform the calculations yourself, firstly in order to check the tool is providing sensible results but also in case things change and the tool no longer is applicable or is no longer available.

That said, using the tools can save a lot of time. The only one I have checked out in much detail is the wiki one at http://www.pe-wiki.info/Chart.aspx?chart=Weapon. Witte has recently updated it so that it takes into account your profession levels, thus providing a nice comparison between SIB and non-SIB guns. It takes a bit of time to set-up your data the first time round but its very useful so I'd recommend taking the time to do it! Documentation here.

Note that wiki provides the Economy of the gun assuming current market price in the case of L guns. Also beware L guns which haven't yet got a % markup - for these the economy is calculated assuming there is no markup.

There's quite a few other tools out there that I haven't checked out yet. Many have been linked to by people in the responses below and are worth checking out too.

Conclusion

I am trying to aim for an economy of better than 4.00 dmg/pec at the moment (miss rate and damage range ingnored). Obviously this is fairly easy with a Breer but I'd like something that does at least as much damage as my old Opalo set up. This can certainly be managed with a decent deal on Korss, UL3 or Svempa S60 for instance, but you may have to shop around! Watch out for guns that decay fast - the mark up on these can be a killer (imagine how the poor melee hunters feel)!

Note, that with markup, miss rate and damage range all taken into consideration, the best economy option I can find is Willard Heatray A which weighs in at 2.98 dmg/pec. Obviously you'll be hunting pretty small mobs with that, but it'd make a great economy option for beginners.

[Blinding Light]

Very Nice guide
+rep

No wonder you are the newest mod?

-Blinding Light

[Alice]

pretty nice

might even bring some ppl like me to use limited crap, i mean, weapons

but honestly, really nice

[In Love With]

Jimmy,

Nice guide indeed. I have (for my own purpose) created an excel spreadsheet where I have stats on L weapons with and without amps showing the true eco at cost in 1-Ped intervals (exampled, Breer M2a L bought for 45 ped, for 46 ped and so on)... It quickly shows what is a good deal (in terms of eco) and what is not ... Happy to share this with you if you want/need more info (pm me an e-mail and I can send it to you)...

What would also be interesting is to see such charts on non-SIB weapons. For example I have just bought an adjusted Sollomate kangoo which has a great eco but with my skills (far lower than yours) I am sure I waste that good eco. What would be awesome to see is how attachments influence the eco of the gun (2x lasers, 1x scope) ... But how to calculate that I would not know

ILW

[Jimmy B]

Thanks everyone

Originally Posted by In Love With

Jimmy,
Nice guide indeed. I have (for my own purpose) created an excel spreadsheet where I have stats on L weapons with and without amps showing the true eco at cost in 1-Ped intervals (exampled, Breer M2a L bought for 45 ped, for 46 ped and so on)... It quickly shows what is a good deal (in terms of eco) and what is not ... Happy to share this with you if you want/need more info (pm me an e-mail and I can send it to you)...

Sure, I'll PM you my work address when I get back to work. Unfortunately haven't got round to getting Excel at home!

Originally Posted by In Love With

What would also be interesting is to see such charts on non-SIB weapons. For example I have just bought an adjusted Sollomate kangoo which has a great eco but with my skills (far lower than yours) I am sure I waste that good eco. What would be awesome to see is how attachments influence the eco of the gun (2x lasers, 1x scope) ... But how to calculate that I would not know

Yes its difficult to compare SIB and non-SIB weapons directly. The effect of lower min damage is easily enough quantified but the effects of lower HA and of lasers+scope are harder to quantify.

In my opinion though, given that your skills are presumably relatively low (just going by how long you've been here!) I very much doubt even an Imp Mk II would compare well to a 4.00dmg/pec limited weapon.

[sledge-]

very well done and +rep

I can only confirm the power of L-weapons. I changed to the Korss handguns some time ago and i'm happy with them ... specialy the H400 is a very nice gun. The only problem i see is, as you cleared, the markup you pay on it. If you don't loot one you have to buy for a big markup. Compared to unlimited guns i still prefer L because at least i hit with as good as any shot and dont burn ammo for nothing ... more fun for me

[Frey]

Originally Posted by Jimmy B

Thanks everyone



Sure, I'll PM you my work address when I get back to work. Unfortunately haven't got round to getting Excel at home!



Yes its difficult to compare SIB and non-SIB weapons directly. The effect of lower min damage is easily enough quantified but the effects of lower HA and of lasers+scope are harder to quantify.

In my opinion though, given that your skills are presumably relatively low (just going by how long you've been here!) I very much doubt even an Imp Mk II would compare well to a 4.00dmg/pec limited weapon.

I read that someone had calculated the % of missed shots at being linear, with 20% misses for 0HA, and 8% for 10HA.

Taking that in mind, its pretty easy to calculate the actual economy and dmg/sec of all weapons.

For example, using those numbers with 5HA, and mindmg of 33%, the real economy of ml35+dante is 2.42 dmg/pec.

Real economy of Korss H400 + a106 with 10 HA, mindmg 50% is 2.96 dmg/sec (with no markup).

Calculating economy of limited weapons without including the bonus to HA and mindmg is rather pointless, since that is their real strenght, and without including that they look like very below-avg weapons when they in fact are very efficient for most hunters.

[nvcK]

You forgot Riker UL2 + a103, great eco as long as u can loot your own ^^

[Jimmy B]

Originally Posted by Frey

I read that someone had calculated the % of missed shots at being linear, with 20% misses for 0HA, and 8% for 10HA.

Taking that in mind, its pretty easy to calculate the actual economy and dmg/sec of all weapons.

Yes, that's very useful thanks - I've never seen that.

Originally Posted by Frey

Calculating economy of limited weapons without including the bonus to HA and mindmg is rather pointless, since that is their real strenght, and without including that they look like very below-avg weapons when they in fact are very efficient for most hunters.

Its more that I'm writing off non-SIB to begin with - assuming a sensible markup is paid I believe SIB will be better for the vast majority of players than any non-SIB.

However, if that statistic about missed shots is correct a better comparison between the two types of weapon can clearly be made.

Originally Posted by nvcK

You forgot Riker UL2 + a103, great eco as long as u can loot your own ^^

Well I wasn't intending it to be an exhaustive list! And well, yes, looting your own is ideal but I doubt its possible to loot them fast enough to never have to buy any...

[onoff]

Sorry but i dont understand the 100%, 122%, 200 % etc etc


Breer M2a + A102, 100%...4.25 dmg/pec
Breer M2a + A102, 113%...4.19 dmg/pec
Breer M2a + A102, 161%...4.00 dmg/pec
GunDecay = 0.598, ftt = 39, Range = 60.5

Breer M3a + A102, 100%...4.24 dmg/pec
Breer M3a + A102, 122%...4.11 dmg/pec
Breer M3a + A102, 144%...4.00 dmg/pec
GunDecay = 0.845, ftt = 43.5, Range = 62.7

Korss H400 + A106, 100%............4.29 dmg/pec
Korss H400 + A106, 200%............3.99 dmg/pec
Korss H400 + A106, 200% tt=40...3.96 dmg/pec
GunDecay = 0.920, ftt = 177, Range = 35.2

Riker UL3 + A105, 100%............4.25 dmg/pec
Riker UL3 + A105, 150%............3.93 dmg/pec
Riker UL3 + A105, 200%............3.65 dmg/pec
Riker UL3 + A105, 200% tt=40...3.61 dmg/pec
GunDecay = 1.817, ftt = 135, Range = 62.7

Svempa S60, 100%...4.12 dmg/pec
Svempa S60, 124%...3.98 dmg/pec
GunDecay = 1.025, ftt = 90, Range = 26.4