fixing the auction.

[Vorg]

The time extender I think is a good idea. I've been wishing Ebay would do something like that for some time to kill the bots. With Ebay though, it should be more like a hour or so at least. Any bids with less then an hour auto extend the time by 1 hour.

[cevaliao]

Originally Posted by walker1

Ah... but why have the choice of so many days to keep it in the auction then? Either it ends after so long or it does not... Not both ways.

It's mostly to prevent auction snipers and gives people a chance to rebid.

[aridash]

two basic improvements would be minimum bids based on current bid value/activity to prevent silly 1ped bid wars (we've all done it, but it is tedious) and auction grpahs to be rendered with or without BO. this would remove most of the manipulation problems. Ideally, should also show unsold, but then PEauction looses its value which would be a shame.

[Henceforth]

Originally Posted by aridash

two basic improvements would be minimum bids based on current bid value/activity to prevent silly 1ped bid wars (we've all done it, but it is tedious) and auction grpahs to be rendered with or without BO. this would remove most of the manipulation problems. Ideally, should also show unsold, but then PEauction looses its value which would be a shame.

PEauction is also a bit f#cked up

Check the FF4400 for instance
PEAuction.com - Item Listing - Fire Forge BGH 4400

You see the last 13 bids are all above 500, yet the average price is below 300 because it filters out the abnormal high bids, but hey more than a halfyear high bids is abnormal? The price is that high nowwadays. If I calculate the last 10 bids it is 650 and not 295

I dont believe PEauction prices anymore, it is only nice to see what is sold when, with bids only and how much PED it was (BP) because that isnt visible in the markup-graph ingame.

Tobad Wiki is linked to PEauction, and the difference in prices on items is noticable ingame too:

I want to sell something, they say that high price? check PEauction.
I want to buy something, they say check markup-graph the price is fine..

[kira-red]

Originally Posted by Tussi

The problem you describe is with the market value stats and not the auction.

yes. although the statistics are the result of the auction peocess. playing with the statisics wouldn't be necessary if the original process was clean.

note that the live auction, in this context, is only useful for items which are not stackable. stackables (resources) go to the market.

although, I will say, using a weighted average in the statisics will help.

Originally Posted by Tussi

Great, more running around.

sure, why not? we run around to do everything else. if you want to attend an event you have to be at a certain place at a certain time. the live auction should be no different. you would still be able to use the commodities market as you wish.

Originally Posted by Tussi

So you mean instant buyout on everything, or how do i have to envision that? Don't get how that should end manipulation.

it's an instant buyout on offers. for a bid, it's a request for an instant sale. this is exactly how a commodities market operates. manipulation is reduced because you can't low-ball to your friend and overselling is pointless because you can't control the volume need to skew the results.

one could attempt to "corner" the market, as is done in the real world, but that can be quite the gamble considering commodities are renewable over time.

Originally Posted by Tussi

We already have that, except that the auction now times out after 7 days. how should that work? Last bid * 2 or what?

if the auction period is short people will be less likely to peg something to it for 7 days at a silly price. it'll encourage people to use shops where the prices are more stable over the long haul. the live auction is for getting rid of something quickly.

it becomes an alternate to owning a shop rather than a detremate to investing in one.

one type of progessive bid is usually some increment which can be rolled back some if there are no takers. real life life auctions work this way. another way is to us 50% of the last bid differnce. neither is perfect, but it's better than 1 ped every five minutes ad nausum.

Originally Posted by Tussi

So then manipulator will put up 2 orders: Buy all <x and sell at y - you would only have automated the market manipulation.

I would sell to the bid x+1 and buy from the offer at y-1. the proposed manipulator is not the only player on the board.

Originally Posted by Tussi

Which would mean that the first guy who bids on an item will get it when noone is interested within the same timeslot.

correct. the onus is on the seller to know what they are doing. a good start is to post a start bid you are willing to accept.

Originally Posted by Tussi

Which would mean that i would have to attend to auction every 4 hours to look for stuff i need (or else the resellers would buy it because they're living in the auction interface).

you could go to a shop. and yes, live auction camping becomes pointess, unless there is something there you really want. auctions become mini-events.

Originally Posted by Tussi

Sorry, don't like that plan.

that's okay. I only thought about it for 30 minutes.

[aridash]

Originally Posted by Will Henceforth

PEauction is also a bit f#cked up
...
I dont believe PEauction prices anymore, it is only nice to see what is sold when, with bids only and how much PED it was (BP) because that isnt visible in the markup-graph ingame.

PeAuction isnt perfect either, but the important point is that you can see all trades more clearly, and non-sales, which often gives more information than a sale. it would be ideal to show all BO, open sales and non sales.

[Tussi]

Originally Posted by kira-red

yes. although the statistics are the result of the auction peocess. playing with the statisics wouldn't be necessary if the original process was clean.

As i see it the statistics are the direct result of the trade performed at the auction. They are some sort of unuseable because someone can manipulate them (eg. by trading a low quantity for an insane high markup).

although, I will say, using a weighted average in the statisics will help.

True. That should remove most (or all) problems with the current ingame market statistics. Even better would be to additionally ignore the top and bottom 10% of the sales.

one type of progessive bid is usually some increment which can be rolled back some if there are no takers. real life life auctions work this way. another way is to us 50% of the last bid differnce. neither is perfect, but it's better than 1 ped every five minutes ad nausum.

Where's the problem of one guy bidding 1 PED more than the other untill all others are gone? It's a strategy that may (or may not) work. You can answer to that strategy by bidding what you're willing to pay and then see if the 1 PED guy is willing to pay more.

Plus the 50% of last bid difference would lead to the first guy bidding in a way that the next bid would have to pay way more than marked price.

Sorry, currend system is way better than the thing you proposed.

I would sell to the bid x+1 and buy from the offer at y-1. the proposed manipulator is not the only player on the board.

Which means that basically you can live with the inflated price created through this.

Good for you - still don't like it though:

Your system would basically allow anyone with a high-enough PED card balance to setup orders like:
Buy X for y and sell X for y+1
... which would instantly raise the minimum price for X to y.

And i think the markup on most stuff here is overinflated anyway.

a good start is to post a start bid you are willing to accept.

That's already offered by the auction system we currently have.

you could go to a shop. and yes, live auction camping becomes pointess, unless there is something there you really want. auctions become mini-events.

I wouldn't go that far to call the selling of an sought-after item an event.

Tussi.

[Kosh]

How is the brokers idea different from the current situation?
You have orders for buyers and buyouts for sellers, what am I missing something?

The live auction idea I do not like at all, the resellers will be given an advantage because they are the ones who will make the effort to run around and grab all bargains on the auction. I prefer the current system to that.

The average prices are weighted averages I believe, even MA cant be that stupid as to present normal averages on stackable resources.

The manipulation is a problem, but the statistics should not replace your common sense when buying or selling. The option to see averages excluding buyouts is a good idea that came up in this thread.

[kira-red]

Originally Posted by Kosh

How is the brokers idea different from the current situation?

it's more of a reorganization of what you have now, removing the intermediate steps. let's say you're selling iron.

you look at the brokeage market and see buy bids like these:

buy, iron (0.39ped), bid 0.4290 ped (110%), quanity 100 ped.
buy, iron (0.39ped), bid 0.4485 ped (115%), quanity 10 ped.
buy, iron (0.39ped), bid 0.4563 ped (117%), quanity 20 ped.

each buy bid cost the poster a fee and the had to put up the cash. bids at the same price are aggrated.

you have ~50 ped (terminal value, 128 units) of iron, you want to sell it at 117%. so, you take the 20 bid - selling 9 units leaving you with 119. you then post a sale order:

sell, iron (0.39 ped), offer 0.4563 ped (117%), quanity 54 ped.

Originally Posted by Kosh

You have orders for buyers and buyouts for sellers, what am I missing something?

the buyouts and start bids are realistic because that's all you have. manipulation is very difficult, unless I'm missing something. seeing both together, I believe gives a better picture.

Originally Posted by Kosh

The live auction idea I do not like at all, the resellers will be given an advantage because they are the ones who will make the effort to run around and grab all bargains on the auction. I prefer the current system to that.

actually, I think it makes it more difficult for resellers. the way it is now is a realling dream. you just camp the auction all day. remember, the live auction would be a different system from the market. the market would be accessable as we see it now.

auction events could be advertised and would likely be only for higher end items. resellers are going to have more competition. they can still search all the shops for deals to lot sel on the auction - but that's more work for them and perhaps even a useful service.

[quote=Kosh;1079375]The average prices are weighted averages I believe, even MA cant be that stupid as to present normal averages on stackable resources.[quote=Kosh;1079375]

I'm sure there's some weighting but it seems very easy manipulate the day price.

Originally Posted by Kosh

The option to see averages excluding buyouts is a good idea that came up in this thread.

I do agree with this, within the current system. although, you'd do this only because buyouts are considered unrealistic. in a system where there are only start bid/buyouts, this exclusion becomes unnecessary.

[kira-red]

Originally Posted by Tussi

Plus the 50% of last bid difference would lead to the first guy bidding in a way that the next bid would have to pay way more than marked price.

only in cases where the start bid was not realistic.

Originally Posted by Tussi

Your system would basically allow anyone with a high-enough PED card balance to setup orders like:
Buy X for y and sell X for y+1
... which would instantly raise the minimum price for X to y.

no, it wouldn't. this proposed manipulation would have to have a great deal of money and a very large amount of the resource at hand to be able to do this. he still might lose, if enough people start selling into his inflated price. he'll end up with more resources at a price no one wishes to pay, if he doesn't control all of the resource, it'll quickly fall as others post sell ay y-1, y-2, y-5 because no one is willing to buy.

Originally Posted by Tussi

That's already offered by the auction system we currently have.

I'd rather see realistic start bids and buyouts forced for commodities.

Originally Posted by Tussi

I wouldn't go that far to call the selling of an sought-after item an event.

why not? it's more or less what it is. auction events could sell by lot, as well. a lot could contain a mix of things - including complete armour sets.