Will Mindark fix space ?

[Nor Alien]

Originally Posted by Bjorn|MindArk

One of our priorities in early 2012 will be to exand and improve the user experience in space. Hopefully I will be able to share an overview of our space development roadmap very soon.

Woot can't wait to see what you have planned!

[Bjorn|MindArk]

Having lootable PvP in space is a very important part of the long term design concept of Entropia's multiple planet single universe.

One important issue that many people who complain about space PvP seem not to appreciate is that without any sort of risk when transporting resources and materials between planets, it would be very difficult to enable local planetary economies to emerge.

Without those transport costs and potential risks, traders would simply relocate all resources found on newer planets to the largest market (currently Calypso), and the local planet economies would suffer. Similarly, buyers of crafted and looted items would also flock to the largest market for convenience and lower prices.

If travel and transport between planets is completely risk-free, the end result will be one very active market hub, at the expense of the local planet economies.

Mindark's goal is to create a system that allows vibrant economies to develop on all of the planets, not only Calypso. PvP in space is one part of the system design to achieve that goal.

[Stave Petty]

Originally Posted by Bjorn|MindArk

Having lootable PvP in space is a very important part of the long term design concept of Entropia's multiple planet single universe.

One important issue that many people who complain about space PvP seem not to appreciate is that without any sort of risk when transporting resources and materials between planets, it would be very difficult to enable local planetary economies to emerge.

Without those transport costs and potential risks, traders would simply relocate all resources found on newer planets to the largest market (currently Calypso), and the local planet economies would suffer. Similarly, buyers of crafted and looted items would also flock to the largest market for convenience and lower prices.

If travel and transport between planets is completely risk-free, the end result will be one very active market hub, at the expense of the local planet economies.

Mindark's goal is to create a system that allows vibrant economies to develop on all of the planets, not only Calypso. PvP in space is one part of the system design to achieve that goal.

That still doesn't mean you cant have a large enough non pvp area around planets, so things like space hunting and exploring can flourish...

Just have international space seperating planets with lootable pvp

[Xandra]

Hi,

Originally Posted by Bjorn|MindArk

Having lootable PvP in space is a very important part of the long term design concept of Entropia's multiple planet single universe.

Bjorn, the problem atm is that space is different from all other lootable PvP we had before - it's essential to enjoy the whole game. Nobody ever was forced to enter one of the few lootable PvP areas to enjoy what was announced, and what was paid for.
This has changed.

Originally Posted by Bjorn|MindArk

One important issue that many people who complain about space PvP seem not to appreciate is that without any sort of risk when transporting resources and materials between planets, it would be very difficult to enable local planetary economies to emerge.

You are right, but does this justify to force dangers upon us very, very, dangerously closely related to RL crimes? I'm sure you have consulted MA juristic department about this, if such beast exists ...

Originally Posted by Bjorn|MindArk

Without those transport costs and potential risks, traders would simply relocate all resources found on newer planets to the largest market (currently Calypso), and the local planet economies would suffer. Similarly, buyers of crafted and looted items would also flock to the largest market for convenience and lower prices.

Don't they do this already, just because of the dangers of space faring? Not sure if I really understand your argument, to me it seems that it just encourages this "flocking".

Originally Posted by Bjorn|MindArk

If travel and transport between planets is completely risk-free, the end result will be one very active market hub, at the expense of the local planet economies.

So more or less what we have at the moment. But hey, exactly this shouldn't happen, hmmmm. Segregating the players with artificially imposed risks will always lead to one result - concentration on the most populated planet.
Not a coincidence that this planet is owned by MA, right? You know how this will be considered by the participants?

Originally Posted by Bjorn|MindArk

Mindark's goal is to create a system that allows vibrant economies to develop on all of the planets, not only Calypso. PvP in space is one part of the system design to achieve that goal.

At the moment it doesn't do anything but strengthening Calypso even more, sorry. And, to be honest, I don't buy any story that this isn't meant. You not even got it working that a pirate will be displayed as pirate reliably, after months now ...

Sorry Bjorn, I don't buy this. But I'm not only destructive, so hear a few proposals:

• No pirate can loot more then what itself carries in lootables. This would make it a fair game again, finally. Most important - a fair game.
• Large safe zones around any planet, including the space stations, and the planetary training grounds holding space mobs. This would encourage a lot of people to try out space - atm most stay planet side, because they fear of getting looted by just another Uber.
• Mobs in the space between the planets - mobs that would loot you if successful, but would loot your loot again when killed then, at the second try.
• Reduction of space to tolerable distances again - having to sleep at the computer for more then a hour, just to reach a distant planet, is this much 90's ...

Hope you're still reading. In my opinion this space thingie has done more harm then good. It actively encouraged ppl to visit Calypso, and to stay there. It actively encouraged ppl to stay on Calypso, and not to leave to test the new planets. Well - any taking of stackables is high risk, but how should any crafter craft without, out there on a distant planet, eager to loot the planet BP's?

Talking about the better benefit a Calypso is of no meaning, you know as well as me. Let's talk about NI, they really seem to be in a struggle, RT not far behind. What would the crashing of NI mean to Calypso? To the platform?

I cannot help, but the way space is done doesn't really suit any of your explanations, checked against the reality. The way space is done only opens another legal hole (help to theft), and leads to exact this what you say you'd not want: Concentration of a majority of the participants on Calypso.

Please, finally, consider this. The road you're going is a dead-end one.

Have a good time!

[FlorencioNineWind]

Originally Posted by Bjorn|MindArk

Having lootable PvP in space is a very important part of the long term design concept of Entropia's multiple planet single universe.

One important issue that many people who complain about space PvP seem not to appreciate is that without any sort of risk when transporting resources and materials between planets, it would be very difficult to enable local planetary economies to emerge.

Without those transport costs and potential risks, traders would simply relocate all resources found on newer planets to the largest market (currently Calypso), and the local planet economies would suffer. Similarly, buyers of crafted and looted items would also flock to the largest market for convenience and lower prices.

If travel and transport between planets is completely risk-free, the end result will be one very active market hub, at the expense of the local planet economies.

Mindark's goal is to create a system that allows vibrant economies to develop on all of the planets, not only Calypso. PvP in space is one part of the system design to achieve that goal.

What you don't seem to understand is that lootable pvp has largely shut down the interspace trading of goods. Most of the traders would rather not take the risk and so interspace trading doesn't happen. Also, the very thing that you don't want to happen has happened. Everyone flocks to Calypso because it is the largest economy and "for the most part" you can find the best deals on Calypso. Also, there is far less risk transporting items through space if you are going towards the largest economy as opposed to a weak one. If you take the risk to transport your goods to the largest economy then at least you know that you will most likely get your goods sold if the risk taking is successful.

Also, I like the idea of having planet bound auctions, but you should still be able to bid and buy items on other planet auctions. Bid and buy from anywhere, but still have to travel to that planet to pick it up. By making it so that you have to be on the planet to bid and buy the item you are not promoting interspace economy. By doing this you are forcing people to travel to Calypso and encourage its economy because it is has all the items.

The actions that MindArk has taken has had the exact opposite effect of what you say they want to happen. This is why EU is being run into the ground and also why the players are worried for its existance.

[FlorencioNineWind]

The latest change to space has encouraged piracy even more. By moving crystal palace, foma, and calypso space station closer together MindArk has created a bramuda triangle. With these three places so close together it is now much easier for pirates to patrol the area in search of miners and hunters bringing their loot back to Calypso. This bramuda triangle's location also makes it more dangerous to travel from Calypso to Arkadia and from Arkadia to Calypso thus restricting interspace commerce even more.

[mastermesh]

Originally Posted by Bjorn|MindArk

Having lootable PvP in space is a very important part of the long term design concept of Entropia's multiple planet single universe.

One important issue that many people who complain about space PvP seem not to appreciate is that without any sort of risk when transporting resources and materials between planets, it would be very difficult to enable local planetary economies to emerge.

Without those transport costs and potential risks, traders would simply relocate all resources found on newer planets to the largest market (currently Calypso), and the local planet economies would suffer. Similarly, buyers of crafted and looted items would also flock to the largest market for convenience and lower prices.

If travel and transport between planets is completely risk-free, the end result will be one very active market hub, at the expense of the local planet economies.

Mindark's goal is to create a system that allows vibrant economies to develop on all of the planets, not only Calypso. PvP in space is one part of the system design to achieve that goal.

In the past, when it was possible to buy items from Rocktropia through the auction, I did fairly often from Calypso. Now that that's no longer possible, I have not bought much from that planet lately. How is making there be fewer buyers of items on Rocktropia good for the Rocktropia economy?

How is isolating the virtual universe in to multiple pockets good for the economy. I'm sure pilots would like it if you'd give them the free cash they had rolling in when the interplanetary tp system existed and the transport fee system to buy from other planets existed as well?...

'risk free' as you put it does not have to be 'completely free.' Just make it cost a little more to bypass space. Since 'all trades are final' and support seems to be telling people to use space taxis, you have a bit of an issue in that support is advocating that maybe not all trades are final... which is fine, but if that's going to be the case, you need to make some sort of system in which taxi rides and similar sort of services that are offered have a mutual system that is not just based on 'trust'... something built in to the actual in game systems to allow services - similar to to the way the beauty professions work for altering avatars looks that both the buyer and the beautician agree on as the service is provided, etc... the space taxis need a meter that both the driver and the rider can see and understand and mutually agree on... maybe even build it so like say 15 peds is the cost to travel to planet x... at the half way point, half of the peds is paid... if a pirate strikes before you get 3/4 of the way, the rest of peds are not given to the driver since the 'service' that was being provided was not completed yet.

To put it another way..
Why do you want to hurt estate owners by giving them reasons to not travel to other planets since the roads between the planets through the stars is full of pirates? Those that might be willing to buy estates on multiple planets would be encouraged to do so more if the travel from one place to another would be hassle free... It's rumored in the forums that some higher level players that do own estates on multiple planets are allowed to have multiple avatars for each planet to manage their estates without the worries of pvp space and travel fees. If that is the case, do you plan to open that up to any/all avatars that have estates on multiple planets? If it's not true, do you mind removing the banker avatars since it looks like some players might have multiple avatars on different planets through those.

[Bjorn|MindArk]

Originally Posted by Stave Petty

That still doesn't mean you cant have a large enough non pvp area around planets, so things like space hunting and exploring can flourish...

Just have international space seperating planets with lootable pvp

The majority of complaints about space PvP that I have seen focus on travel between planets and the transport of resources not on space hunting and exploration, which is why I directed my previous reply to those opposed to interplanetary space PvP.

Enlarging the safe zones around the planets is one possiblity that we are considering in our upcoming improvements and expansion of the space system.

Originally Posted by Xandra

Bjorn, the problem atm is that space is different from all other lootable PvP we had before - it's essential to enjoy the whole game. Nobody ever was forced to enter one of the few lootable PvP areas to enjoy what was announced, and what was paid for.
This has changed.

You are right, but does this justify to force dangers upon us very, very, dangerously closely related to RL crimes? I'm sure you have consulted MA juristic department about this, if such beast exists ...

PvP (including lootable PvP) is a very important part of the Entropia Universe concept, even from the earliest days. Participants are never forced to engage in PvP against their will, and they are always adequately warned when entering an area where PvP combat is possible.

If a player decides to accept those warnings and enter a PvP area, that player must also accept the potential risks involved, such as being looted by other players.

Originally Posted by mastermesh

In the past, when it was possible to buy items from Rocktropia through the auction, I did fairly often from Calypso. Now that that's no longer possible, I have not bought much from that planet lately. How is making there be fewer buyers of items on Rocktropia good for the Rocktropia economy?

How is isolating the virtual universe in to multiple pockets good for the economy. I'm sure pilots would like it if you'd give them the free cash they had rolling in when the interplanetary tp system existed and the transport fee system to buy from other planets existed as well?...

Our internal market activity data show very clearly and convincingly that the local planet economies have become much more active since the release of VU 12.0.0, when teleporting between planets was disabled and planet-bound auctions were introduced.

Originally Posted by mastermesh

'risk free' as you put it does not have to be 'completely free.' Just make it cost a little more to bypass space. Since 'all trades are final' and support seems to be telling people to use space taxis, you have a bit of an issue in that support is advocating that maybe not all trades are final... which is fine, but if that's going to be the case, you need to make some sort of system in which taxi rides and similar sort of services that are offered have a mutual system that is not just based on 'trust'... something built in to the actual in game systems to allow services - similar to to the way the beauty professions work for altering avatars looks that both the buyer and the beautician agree on as the service is provided, etc... the space taxis need a meter that both the driver and the rider can see and understand and mutually agree on... maybe even build it so like say 15 peds is the cost to travel to planet x... at the half way point, half of the peds is paid... if a pirate strikes before you get 3/4 of the way, the rest of peds are not given to the driver since the 'service' that was being provided was not completed yet.

As I said before, MindArk plans to focus a lot of effort on further developing space in 2012, and one of the things we plan on improving is the passenger and transport system.

Originally Posted by mastermesh

It's rumored in the forums that some higher level players that do own estates on multiple planets are allowed to have multiple avatars for each planet to manage their estates without the worries of pvp space and travel fees. If that is the case, do you plan to open that up to any/all avatars that have estates on multiple planets? If it's not true, do you mind removing the banker avatars since it looks like some players might have multiple avatars on different planets through those.

You should not put too much faith in forum rumors.

[Airboy]

Originally Posted by mastermesh

In the past, when it was possible to buy items from Rocktropia through the auction, I did fairly often from Calypso. Now that that's no longer possible, I have not bought much from that planet lately. How is making there be fewer buyers of items on Rocktropia good for the Rocktropia economy?

Because it work the other way around also. Players on Rocktropia could by items from Calypso instead of buying local crafted items.

With a total free market without any "transport problems" it would be much easier for a few crafters to dominate the market. New local crafters on the new planets would have it much more difficult to compete against the crafters and sellers on Calypso. So in this i think MA is doing the right thing.

But the queastion is if they need both the pvp and the "long traveltime" for ships without space jump abilities. I think just one of them could be enough, being able to travel "safe", but it takes around 30-40 min, or travel in pvp space for 10 min. Because the around 40 min time it takes to go between the planet is enough to limit the trade and make it hard for a player to trade on many planets on the same time.

[FlorencioNineWind]

Now I kinda feel left out cause Bjorn didn't put any quotes from me in his response.

Also, I'm afraid that MindArk really needs to get their heads together and realize that our complaints, frustrations, and worries are far more than just forum rumors. These are the things that we talk about constantly in EU and the things that we see constantly happening in the game. Either MA is lieing or they just don't know what they are doing because what Bjorn says and what we see ourselves is entirely contradictory. MindArk's internal marketing data must be wrong because our own data says different.

First, I would like to pose a few questions to MA:

1.) If you think that pirates increase the value of items and increase the interspace economy then I ask you this. In real life does the world economy work better when pirates are stealing all our goods, or when we are allowed to trade freely?

2.) Does MindArk ever listen to what the players tell them? Most of which are things that would improve the game and get MA more money. From my 1+year of playing this game MA has only ever done one good/surprising thing and that would be the handling of the Ark Royal incident. Their handling of it was completely unexpected and I do praise MA for handling it the way they did. However, should such help from MA be unexpected? Players help other players 100 times more often than MA does and I just think that such feelings of division make the players feel like the company who makes the game they play doesn't care.

3.) Will the claypso land plot deed voting system be up and ready by the end of this year? Because I really feel like MA needs our help.

Next we offer an easy solution:

Keep space lootable pvp, keep space the size it is as time does facilitate economic growth. What MA needs to do is impliment some "Safe Zone Highways" linking the planets. There could be one going from caly to RT, form RT to NI, from NI to Ark, From Ark to caly, and then one from caly to NI, and from Ark to RT. These highways would be safe zones roughly 2 MS's wide and 2 MS's high. You would have to pay a "Toll Tax" to enter these safe zones. Say 2 or 4ped. This would encourage interspace trading and give MA more money in the form of the toll tax as well as giving participants a choice to enter pvp. I KNOW THAT MA AND OTHERS THINK WE HAVE A CHOICE BUT WE DON"T. Please get that idiotic notion out of your heads. If we want to travel to other planets and experience them then we have no choice but to enter the pvp zones. How in any way do we promote interspace commerce and travel if we force people to go into pvp zones in order to do so. It would be like saying that in order to trade things in Twin Peaks you have to cross through pvp4. Forcing players to travel through pvp zones to get to the other planets does not promote interspace economy or community. With the implimentation of a highway toll system we would have that choice. Pirates would still get their chance to be pirates and traders would get their chance to be safe By giving us a choice to pay a toll fee or take our chances in pvp.

Finally, I understand what you are saying Airboy, but I think the problem here is that we would have to choose between the lesser of two evils. Yes, local crafters may have a harder time getting things sold on their planets if people can just buy things from Calypso, but they also have to travel to Calypso. Basically the choice becomes whether or not we wanna spend the ped and time to travel all the way to Calypso as opposed to buying local items. In this way the local economy still has a chance to improve. Furthermore, isolating the planets by completely locking the auction only hurts the local economy. If you could buy items on other planets then you could watch out for good deals and jump on them nomatter where you were. You could also buy in bulk from one planet as you found good deals and decided you needed these items on another. By locking the auctions we find ourselves being forced to travel to the planet where the items are and if, for example, I see a quadwing on Calypso auction going for a buyout of 80ped while I'm on Arkadia then I have to travel all the way to calypso only to find out that the item had already been boughten. This isolation discourages travel. In the minds of people it would be much easier to simply live on the planet with the most items so they could get what they needed and at a good price rather than being stuck on another planet when a good deal was open. Because of this people flock to Calypso and the bound auctions discourage players from staying on other Planets. Infact, local crafters could still get things sold because if I'm on Calypso and I see a stack of welding wire being sold on Arkadia for 10% less then I'm gonna buy the welding wire from Arkadia and pick it up the next time I'm there. Just the other day I saw 5 low TT Athenian tunics for sale on NI for 2ped a piece and was gonna bid on a few, but then I remembered that the planet auctions are bound and I'm on Arkadia. So, I said "Nah, guess I won't be able to buy them. To bad they arn't selling those on Arkadia."